Should we ban cigarettes?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:21 pm

Mikey wrote:
Yeah, I heard a similar argument on Maria Bartiromo's show. Some talking head was saying that diabetics, among other things, should be charged more in certain circles because of our diminished productivity due to a self-inflicted disorder. I never watched nor read Maria Bartiromo after that, because I am a diabetic, and my diabetes had ZERO relationship to any factors within my control. Before I contracted diabetes, I was 5'8", 159 lbs., just turned 35 years of age, excercised MINIMUM three times/week. An autoimmune reaction to a common virus caused the incapacitation of my pancreas. So now, people want to say that I should pay more for health care and suchlike because I got sick? It's bad enough that I can't get life insurance to protect my daughter, that I'll have a shorter lifespan, and that I run the risk of blindness, limb problems, neuropathy, and amputation; now you say you want to make it more difficult to avail myself of whatever treatment is available?

I said self-inflicted, your diabetes isn't.

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:43 pm

The point is that the majority of people - in the case I mentioned, even allegedly educated people - are either unable or unwilling to make that distinction.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:46 pm

Mikey wrote:The point is that the majority of people - in the case I mentioned, even allegedly educated people - are either unable or unwilling to make that distinction.

It would have to be done by a board of medical professionals. I'm not talking about having the billing department of the hospital do it or the insurance company. Though that's what would be likely to happen in the US, they wouldn't pass up the chance to gouge someone.

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:18 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:I'd just charge you extra if you show up at the hospital with a self-infliceted problem like that. Or in the case of a country with an NHS, make you pay out of pocket.

I'd abolish the NHS.

Reliant121 · Post by **Reliant121** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:23 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:I'd just charge you extra if you show up at the hospital with a self-infliceted problem like that. Or in the case of a country with an NHS, make you pay out of pocket.
I'd abolish the NHS.

The NHS has been fantastic to me through the problems i've had. Through my Kawasaki's disease, Through my Tonsilectomy and my Appendectomy. Sure in some places it has been lagging but I think we should Improve it. Give it a manager that has some cajones and get him to actually do the job.

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:37 pm

I understand, and to a degree empathize with, Kendall's idea. However, trying to get the decisions into the hands of the CORRECT decision-makers is bound to be fraught with all sorts of bureaucratic problems. Overall, I tend to follow Graham's thoughts: people SHOULD absolutely live healthier than most are... but government has no place in mandating such things. As I believe Graham said, that slope is a slippery one.

sunnyside · Post by **sunnyside** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:42 pm

Reliant121 wrote: Through my Kawasaki's disease, .

Until I googled it I thought that was a euphomism for getting hit on your motorcycle.

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:54 pm

Reliant121 wrote:
GrahamKennedy wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:I'd just charge you extra if you show up at the hospital with a self-infliceted problem like that. Or in the case of a country with an NHS, make you pay out of pocket.
I'd abolish the NHS.
The NHS has been fantastic to me through the problems i've had. Through my Kawasaki's disease, Through my Tonsilectomy and my Appendectomy. Sure in some places it has been lagging but I think we should Improve it. Give it a manager that has some cajones and get him to actually do the job.

Don't get me wrong, I actually love the idea of the NHS. But the idea of the NHS is to provide universal unlimited healthcare which is free at point of sale. I support the NHS.

If the NHS is going instead to become an excuse for the state to restrict the freedom of the population, then it loses my support. The NHS was used as an excuse for seatbelt laws, for cigarrette restrictions, and now it's starting to be used for food.

That exact same argument could be used to, say, stop certain people from having children. If there's a high risk of health problems then that would cost a lot of money, you know. Also we would ban all dangerous sports. Boxing, motor racing of all forms, etc. People get injured that way you know, and it costs the NHS.

The NHS exists to serve the people. When it becomes the master of the people instead, then something has gone badly wrong.

Reliant121 · Post by **Reliant121** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:24 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:
Reliant121 wrote:
GrahamKennedy wrote: I'd abolish the NHS.
The NHS has been fantastic to me through the problems i've had. Through my Kawasaki's disease, Through my Tonsilectomy and my Appendectomy. Sure in some places it has been lagging but I think we should Improve it. Give it a manager that has some cajones and get him to actually do the job.
Don't get me wrong, I actually love the idea of the NHS. But the idea of the NHS is to provide universal unlimited healthcare which is free at point of sale. I support the NHS.

If the NHS is going instead to become an excuse for the state to restrict the freedom of the population, then it loses my support. The NHS was used as an excuse for seatbelt laws, for cigarrette restrictions, and now it's starting to be used for food.

That exact same argument could be used to, say, stop certain people from having children. If there's a high risk of health problems then that would cost a lot of money, you know. Also we would ban all dangerous sports. Boxing, motor racing of all forms, etc. People get injured that way you know, and it costs the NHS.

The NHS exists to serve the people. When it becomes the master of the people instead, then something has gone badly wrong.

Fair enough....are they trying to restrict food now?

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:48 pm

They are starting to get that way. Stories of doctors refusing treatments to obese people, for instance. It went that way with smokers five or ten years ago.

My point is, where does it stop?

Reliant121 · Post by **Reliant121** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:51 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:They are starting to get that way. Stories of doctors refusing treatments to obese people, for instance. It went that way with smokers five or ten years ago.

My point is, where does it stop?

It won't at this rate.

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:00 pm

Reliant121 wrote:
GrahamKennedy wrote:They are starting to get that way. Stories of doctors refusing treatments to obese people, for instance. It went that way with smokers five or ten years ago.

My point is, where does it stop?
It won't at this rate.

And that's exactly the problem when discussing governmental mandates of this sort of thing.

sunnyside · Post by **sunnyside** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:19 pm

My only experience with the NHS was when we were visiting my brother in law in London and he came down with an ear infection. A bad one. As in he passed out briefly(my brother in law sometimes tries to tough out something he shouldn't) His Dad (who is also a doctor) essentially had to browbeat the NHS doctor to get proper treatment. And the wait was ridiculous. And this was out a way from downtown London.

Serapha · Post by **Serapha** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:35 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:The fact that they're right.

That's an extraordinarily arrogant argument, you know.

No you couldn't - alcohol has proven health benefits in small doses, porn does no harm whatsoever, and TV is an important means of communication, dissemination of information, and advertising.

And drunk driving kills countless people every year, alcoholism ruins lives and families, and I won't even get into the negative effects of porn addiction and TV addiction. But I'm fairly certain that alcohol causes as many deaths as smoking does, if you add up all the "died doing stupid thing while drink" "hit by drunk driver" and various health problems caused by excessive drinking.

You have your opinions, I have mine. Just saying "because it's right" doesn't actually make it so though. And seriously... trying to force adults to do what's good for them is completely absurd, and I wish people would stop doing it. If I want to smoke myself into an early grave, that's my business. (I don't, just for the record. I think smoking is one of the most idiotic habits there is, and the people who smoke are either currently morons or unfortunate victims of their own teenage stupidity, and the smell of smoke makes me want to gag. But that's their business, and not mine.)

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:43 pm

Serapha wrote:And drunk driving kills countless people every year, alcoholism ruins lives and families, and I won't even get into the negative effects of porn addiction and TV addiction. But I'm fairly certain that alcohol causes as many deaths as smoking does, if you add up all the "died doing stupid thing while drink" "hit by drunk driver" and various health problems caused by excessive drinking.

All true, but all those problems are caused by excession, not by the very fact of the activity. Smoking, in whatever quantity, has been proven to be bad for your health.