Defiant Class

[Tsukiyumi]

I think you forgot Vietnam, as well. A treaty with them is the whole reason we got involved over there, IIRC.

[Sionnach Glic]

Bah, go make your own lists, then.

[Captain Seafort]

The French and Indian War is on there twice...and AFAIK that war was before 1776, because it was after that war that britain really started taxing and regulating us which is what pissed us off for the most part and spurred us to rebel

We saved your collective necks from the frogs and you whinged about being asked to make a small contribution towards the cost of said saving of necks. The world's biggest example of tax evasion.

[Lt. Staplic]

we didn't ask to be saved, adn you did it because YOU wanted to fight the french for their colonies, they weren't actually posing us any threat...and not only did you tax us, you also dictated that we couldn't move across the Apalacians like we wanted to.

[Captain Seafort]

we didn't ask to be saved, and you did it because YOU wanted to fight the french for their colonies, they weren't actually posing us any threat

And you think the French didn't want our colonies just as much as we wanted theirs?

not only did you tax us, you also dictated that we couldn't move across the Apalacians like we wanted to.

We banned you from nicking (any more of) other people's territory. Boo hoo.

[Lt. Staplic]

And you think the French didn't want our colonies just as much as we wanted theirs?

yes but the fact still remains we didn't ask for help, plus the taxes were getting a little out of hand...we couldn't trade with any one but you, you could set the prices of our exports very low so you could get them cheeply, then you wanted to tax the sh*t out of what little money we did get from you.

We banned you from nicking (any more of) other people's territory. Boo hoo.

the only people you were "protecting" was the natives, neither of the two sides considered them as rightful owners of the land we were occupying, the real reason is you didn't want us growing and getting away from your control, you feared american living on the contient as a source of opposition to Brittish rule and, b/c of the isolation, a way for americans to avoid taxes.

[Captain Seafort]

yes but the fact still remains we didn't ask for help, plus the taxes were getting a little out of hand...we couldn't trade with any one but you, you could set the prices of our exports very low so you could get them cheeply, then you wanted to tax the sh*t out of what little money we did get from you.

So you were complaining about a) a guaranteed market for your goods and b) having your taxes put up from absolute rock bottom. Before Grenville started making you pay up, the average colonist paid sixpence a year in tax. The average Englishman paid 25 shillings a year - fifty times as much. The Sugar Act reduced duty on molasses, and the Stamp Act merely brought the colonies into line with what we were paying.

the only people you were "protecting" was the natives, neither of the two sides considered them as rightful owners of the land we were occupying

One side obviously did - Great Britain.

the real reason is you didn't want us growing and getting away from your control, you feared american living on the contient as a source of opposition to Brittish rule and, b/c of the isolation, a way for americans to avoid taxes.

Translation: we thought sticking to treaties we'd signed was a good thing. You thought "we want, therefore we'll take".

[Lt. Staplic]

guaranteed market for your goods

no a limited market, we had guarenteed markets, we were selling raw materials, the whole point of colonies, all the major european powers wanted them....you kept us from selling to anyone else, and keeping the price low.

having your taxes put up from absolute rock bottom. Before Grenville started making you pay up, the average colonist paid sixpence a year in tax. The average Englishman paid 25 shillings a year

how much was the average colonist being paid? the money circulation in the colonies was poor b/c the economy was based on british trade and that was not paying well.

One side obviously did - Great Britain.

Not until it benefited you, and did you guys sign any treaties, I wasn't aware if you did (seriously, I'm not being sarcastic). The other problem with treaties is that it's hard to negotiate with tribes because your only talking to any one band at a time, the tribes don't have any one leader to negotiate with.

[Captain Seafort]

no a limited market, we had guarenteed markets, we were selling raw materials, the whole point of colonies, all the major european powers wanted them....you kept us from selling to anyone else, and keeping the price low.

The whole point of colonies is to provide goods and materials to the country that owns the colony. Besides which, as I said it cuts both ways - you were selling goods to us at low prices, but at least you had a market, and at times when supply outstripped British demand the controls were relaxed.

how much was the average colonist being paid? the money circulation in the colonies was poor b/c the economy was based on british trade and that was not paying well.

I don't know. The average Brit wasn't exactly a millionaire, and I would be astonished if the average Brit was earning fifty times that of the average colonial

Not until it benefited you

Of course - no-one signs anything that isn't to their advantage in some way. Once we signed those treaties, however, we stuck to them.

did you guys sign any treaties, I wasn't aware if you did (seriously, I'm not being sarcastic).

Oh yes, there were alliances between some of the locals and British forces - they were a great help during the Seven Years' War in particular. Also, why do you think so many of the locals supported the loyalists? It certainly wasn't out of any loyalty to the Crown, but in defence of their own interests.

The other problem with treaties is that it's hard to negotiate with tribes because your only talking to any one band at a time, the tribes don't have any one leader to negotiate with.

Not at all - negotiations with individual tribes wasn't a problem, any more than negotiating with individual European countries.

[Deepcrush]

The French and Indian War is on there twice...and AFAIK that war was before 1776, because it was after that war that britain really started taxing and regulating us which is what pissed us off for the most part and spurred us to rebel

We saved your collective necks from the frogs and you whinged about being asked to make a small contribution towards the cost of said saving of necks. The world's biggest example of tax evasion.

The worlds greatest joke!

[Deepcrush]

we didn't ask to be saved, adn you did it because YOU wanted to fight the french for their colonies, they weren't actually posing us any threat...and not only did you tax us, you also dictated that we couldn't move across the Apalacians like we wanted to.

I doubt most of the colonials even cared about moving past the Apalacians. There are families there that date back before the French Indian wars.

[Deepcrush]

Without dragging into this debate there are a few points to cover and keep in mind.

The French Indian War wasn't just because of Europe. Troubles had been growning over here for some time. Mostly between the Indian's allied with England and those allied with France. Sooner or later the big guys in Europe are going to get dragged in.

Neither side saved the other (meaning England and colonials). Both parts served the same goal. Defeat the French Allies and they did.

Taxes. England had a war debt and did what any country of the time would have done. Tax people with money. That was the colonies. We had money in our trade markets and England wanted it. Problems came, not when England taxed the colonials but from when they tried to control the colonials. England had left the colonies to there own devices for generations. Now they wanted it back in the name of a war... a war that the colonials had fought it. You can't leave people to rule themselves and then just walk back in and expect that they'll drop everything to make your life better. England forgot that the Colonials had fought the same war. Not over seas but from their homes and there own lands.

Think of it like this. What if the police walked into a Vets house, took over his home for quarter, ordered tthat his family serve them and that he have to turn over a large part of his paycheck to pay for a war... THAT HE EARNED HIS VET STATUS FROM! Really, it was just not a wise idea.

Markets. Again, England needed money. War is an expensive matter and even more so when you have to fight it all over the world. So, tax your markets that can afford it. The question isn't "if" you are going to do so but "how" you are going to do so. The American Colonies have money. The avg colonial lived better then many in Europe at the time. Money in the colonies could be horded where in Europe is was being spent faster then it could be earned. The same mistake that England made with Taxes is the same they made with the Trade Markets. They wanted unquestioned control. For the colonials, being told that anything you want to make, sell, buy or move is now taxed. Everything is now taxed four times over. That right there is going to piss people off. Made worse that England wanted everything moved through England. That means no direct sales. That ends trade against anyone that England doesn't like. People that the Colonials often traded with.

Think of it like this. You want to raise taxes, costs of living and the ability to perform the work. YET, you also cut the pay of everyone you're taking those taxes from. When you risk the way of life or the lives of people in order for your gain at their lost. Only a chakat would think that it's going to end well.

The problem ends that neither side wanted to give. Both wanted things their way. Without give and take, there will be conflict. Doesn't matter if both sides feel they are in the right. You have to be willing to think about the effects your plans will have against others involved. England failed to do this with its want of control. Colonials failed to do this in remembering that they were still part of the British Empire.

[Tsukiyumi]

That was rather well reasoned, Deep. That's the conflict in a nutshell.

[Deepcrush]

In truth, thats just what led to the conflict. I don't really have the time to cover the war as a whole...

[Lt. Staplic]

thanks Deep, very well put.