DS9 and Money

[Captain Seafort]

Except that in the TNG era you've got people spending money, owning property, etc. in a society that presumably has no money or work for material gains anymore.

On DS9, sure. Outside the Federation's borders. That doesn't change the nature of the beast - the Soviet Union bought grain off the US. Indeed, Cuba still has privately-owned tobacco farms, but I doubt anyone would dispute that it's a communist state.

[Tyyr]

Yes, but Russia never pretended to NOT have money. I'll grant you the Cuban example.

[Captain Seafort]

Yes, but Russia never pretended to NOT have money.

They tried initially, and failed, with the result that roubles were pretty much worthless, and there was no official exchange rate (I'm not even sure there is now).

[Tyyr]

In the very first episode Crusher buys something off a merchant. Buys. How does she buy something off a non-Federation merchant if she has no money? If it was someone in the Federation who bought into their Kumbaya bullshit then ok, but it's not a Federation outpost. Clearly she had some form of currency that had worth outside of the Federation to a culture that hadn't drank the economic Kool-aid.

Day 1 of the series and we've got someone purchasing something. It's hard to take the "no money" thing seriously when you're not even 15 minutes into the series and someone is clearing buying something.

[Captain Seafort]

Day 1 of the series and we've got someone purchasing something. It's hard to take the "no money" thing seriously when you're not even 15 minutes into the series and someone is clearing buying something.

Buying stuff does not require money. Crusher specifically instructed the merchant to debit her account on the Enterprise. This suggests that the Federation has some mechanism set up to enable it's representatives to obtain goods while on worlds that still have a real economy - probably in the form of resources such as dilithium.

[Tyyr]

How is that not money?

Money is anything that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts. The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value, and occasionally, a standard of deferred payment.

#Mishkin, Frederic S. (2007). The Economics of Money, Banking, and Financial Markets (Alternate Edition). Boston: Addison Wesley. p. 8. ISBN 0-321-42177-9.
#What Is Money? By John N. Smithin [1] Retrieved July-17-09
#Mankiw, N. Gregory (2007). "2". Macroeconomics (6th ed.). New York: Worth Publishers. pp. 22-32. ISBN 0-7167-6213-7.
#T.H. Greco. Money: Understanding and Creating Alternatives to Legal Tender, White River Junction, Vt: Chelsea Green Publishing (2001). ISBN 1-890132-37-3

Dilithium credits, gold, fairy farts, whatever. She had something of value and then used it as payment for another good. She wasn't buying it for the Federation, she was buying it because she liked it, personally, and was getting it for personal use. To make a dress I believe.

[Captain Seafort]

How is that not money?

Money is anything that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts. The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value, and occasionally, a standard of deferred payment.

#Mishkin, Frederic S. (2007). The Economics of Money, Banking, and Financial Markets (Alternate Edition). Boston: Addison Wesley. p. 8. ISBN 0-321-42177-9.
#What Is Money? By John N. Smithin [1] Retrieved July-17-09
#Mankiw, N. Gregory (2007). "2". Macroeconomics (6th ed.). New York: Worth Publishers. pp. 22-32. ISBN 0-7167-6213-7.
#T.H. Greco. Money: Understanding and Creating Alternatives to Legal Tender, White River Junction, Vt: Chelsea Green Publishing (2001). ISBN 1-890132-37-3

Dilithium credits, gold, fairy farts, whatever. She had something of value and then used it as payment for another good. She wasn't buying it for the Federation, she was buying it because she liked it, personally, and was getting it for personal use. To make a dress I believe.

That definition is either idiotically broad or you've missed out huge chunks of the definition. By that standard "money" would extend to any form of barter, not just liquid capital.

[Tyyr]

What purpose does Beverly Crusher have for stockpiling dilithium aside from its value to others? To use it to purchase goods and services she wants. It's a mechanism for exchange, it's useless to her and likely useless to the merchant. The material itself is useless to them, it's value is not. It's a method of wealth exchange, a form of money. One tied to a commodity yes, but still a primitive form of money.

[Captain Seafort]

What purpose does Beverly Crusher have for stockpiling dilithium aside from its value to others? To use it to purchase goods and services she wants. It's a mechanism for exchange, it's useless to her and likely useless to the merchant. The material itself is useless to them, it's value is not. It's a method of wealth exchange, a form of money. One tied to a commodity yes, but still a primitive form of money.

Primitive in that chimpanzees probably use it. Money, in the sense that everyone who isn't being an obtuse, semantic-driven, sea-lawyering little c**t uses the term, refers to liquid capital.

[Tyyr]

Commodity money is still money. You don't like it, tough, it's money. Coins made out of their value in precious metals have existed right up into the 20th century. Dilithium being used to transfer wealth is an example of a commodity money.

In fact, given the difficulty in dealing with economic exchanges between interstellar groups when travel times are measured in months having your money being intrinsically worth something isn't a bad idea.

[Captain Seafort]

Commodity money is still money. You don't like it, tough, it's money.

No, it isn't, it's barter. You trying to redefine "money" to apply to literally anything physical doesn't change that.

Coins made out of their value in precious metals have existed right up into the 20th century.

Into the early 20th century, on and off - the gold standard went out the window decades ago.

Dilithium being used to transfer wealth is an example of a commodity money.

No, it isn't, it's an example of barter.

[Mikey]

The problem is that she never said she had something to barter - she said to debit her account, which strongly implies virtual money... something which we primitive little monkeys call "credit." Credit requires a money-based economy.

[Captain Seafort]

The problem is that she never said she had something to barter - she said to debit her account, which strongly implies virtual money... something which we primitive little monkeys call "credit." Credit requires a money-based economy.

An economy that is repeatedly disproven. In "The Neutral Zone" no-one had any idea what Offenhouse was talking about when he asked about his investment portfolio. In "The Price" the Federation offered technology, scientific expertise and military assistance for the Barzan wormhole, rather than simply buying it. Not to mention the repeated statements that money doesn't exist.

I reiterate that the most likely procedure is that the Federation compensates the Farpointians for whatever their representatives buy with traded materials.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

As much as I enjoy a good debate, can't we all just agree that money in Trek is so terminally screwed up that you can't reconcile the economics of the Federation based upon existing evidence?

lol, probably why I don't participate in many debates here. MST Mantra, anyone?

[Graham Kennedy]

The best explanation I ever came up with is that it is Humans specifically rather than the Federation that doesn't have money, and that it is in the late TOS / TNG era only.

So far as I am aware, virtually every reference to money in the TNG era refers to dealings in which at least one party is not human. And most references to "we" don't use money are said by Humans, and in some case said specifically to refer to Humans, rather than the Federation. Take the most blatant and specific example, in "In The Cards" :

Jake : "I'm HUMAN, I don't have any money."
Nog : "It's not my fault YOUR SPECIES decided to abandon currency based economics in favour of some philosophy of self enhancement."
Jake : "Hey, watch it! There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of HUMANITY."
Nog : "What does that mean, exactly?"
Jake : "It means... it means we don't need money."
Nog : "Well if you don't need money then you certainly don't need mine."

It is very clear.