Jacorn Weapons debate

[Mark]

Wouldn't that just SUCK??? Opening fire, only to strengthen the enemy's shields?

[Tsukiyumi]

Wouldn't that just SUCK??? Opening fire, only to strengthen the enemy's shields?

Hmm, what if it worked on friendly ships? Interesting concept.

[Coalition]

that woule be ionic and covalent bonds, not reactions

Yes, so when you said this:
"2. I think your misinterpreting the use of the electromagnetic force...while it is much stronger, it's not what holds the steel beams and my ankle together. the EM force is basically light. Gravity would be a better candidate for what holds all that stuff together as each atom would exert a gravitational effect on every other atom."

Does that mean when you said gravity, you were really talking about electromagnetism via ionic and covalent (and where appropriate, metallic)?

they don't 'spread out'. each partical takes every possable path between the initial point and terminal point, that's how the interfearence part comes into play...and no the effects could be much more than twice the normal effects.

Measure the light falling along one the constructive interference areas. Is the light falling on that one area equal to or less than the light that originally passed through the slot?

I argue that the light is less, as the light will have to cover more area (each of the constructive interference locations). So when I say spread out, this means that the initial gravity or light will spread out, becoming lower than the starting level near the warhead. This means the peak where you have constructive interference will be less than the peak where it enters the slits.

So you would be better off just using the starting gravity gradiant, rather than trying to be fancy and splitting it.


Note for everyone else - when he says constructive interference, that means the light waves (or in the case of the weapon, gravity) are in phase. It does not mean they give power to the target (so no using it to help the target's shields).
- Actually, if you watch "Yesterday's Enterprise" - you see where Tasha mentioned that the heat dissipation rates are higher, allowing them to hang in a fight longer. To me that says that the shields will slowly take damage, and the excess heat from that has to be dissipated. So the best way to help out a ship is to help it cool off faster. This runs into fun things like material limits, cooling effectiveness, etc. With shields up, you can't transport ice on board to help out with coolant, so the best way to help a ship's shields regenerate faster is to either wrap your shields around it (taking the stress off their shields, though making yours thinner) or destroying the enemy ship causing the problem.

In the gravity weapon, what he is trying to do is create 'spokes' where gravity is higher in those areas than in neighboring ones. Think about traveling down the road at 60 miles per hour, then hitting speed bumps. Light speed bumps you won't notice. Larger speed bumps you will notice more. Speed bumps similar to the ones you find in front of a strip mall will definitely be noticed.

Not to mention, how do you know there will be constructive and destructive interference from the gravity warhead? Does the enemy warp bubble actually have a specific frequency throughout its hull? If there is no frequency, then you are just trying to create areas where the difference in gravity is too high to maintain warp.

considering electrons don't carry a force that could be kind of hard...the electromagnetic force is carried by photons

Electrons have a mass. That mass will have a specific Coulomb value (in this case, 1.5 grams of electrons has ~260 million Coulombs). That Coulomb value will act on any charge in the target ship (like say, antimatter stored via magnetic containment) and be carried by photons. With that, assuming I can get 1 Coulomb of force in the target (from anything magnetic), then I can exert 7.5 million tons of force at a range of 17 kilometers, aka enough to affect a Galaxy starship. If I can get 4 Coulombs, the range doubles. If the target ship is 1/4 the mass of the Galaxy, the range doubles again.

Now, how did you get 3 kg of gravitons, which are a massless particle? Or did you mean 3 kg of mass, which will emit gravitons? If the latter, what will be the strength in Newtons? Assume you are trying to affect a 7.5 million ton ship.

[Mikey]

Thanks for the assist, Coalition. Yes, constructive (or destructive) interference affects the amplitude of a wave (which we can discuss because of wave-particle duality.) It does not affect the total energy transmitted in that wave - at least, not directly.

This shows the phenomenon pretty simply for visible light, but the effect is similar for any sort of quanta.

[Lt. Staplic]

Yes, so when you said this:
"2. I think your misinterpreting the use of the electromagnetic force...while it is much stronger, it's not what holds the steel beams and my ankle together. the EM force is basically light. Gravity would be a better candidate for what holds all that stuff together as each atom would exert a gravitational effect on every other atom."

Does that mean when you said gravity, you were really talking about electromagnetism via ionic and covalent (and where appropriate, metallic)?

electromagnetic energy is carried by photons, not electrons....ionic bonds, covalent bonds, and metallic bonds all use the sharing/transfer of electrons to bond to eachother.

these molecules then are held together in my ankle because of gravity, i.e. the molecules attract eachother and they clump up forming the bone.


and here is the just of how I see the wepon working:

1. Enemy warp bubble would warp space time around it, pulling distant objects toward it, and pushing passing objects away...Jacorn ship in persuit doing the same thing.

2. Graviton torpedo fired, flying accross the fabric of space towards the enemy ship and it's warp bubble.

3.torpedo goes off, the area around the torpedo, which would be on the warp bubble, would undergo a few seconds of distortions, where the gravity affects the warping of the fabric of space-time.

4. Distrotions cause fluxuations in the warp field destablilizing the field.

5. 1)Field collapses, causing the ship to drop out of warp. 2)Field collapses, slamming the ship into the fabric of space time, destroying it or sending it outside of the recognized space. 3) If their lucky they reshape bubble before cataclysm strikes and continue to be hit by another warhead.

[Coalition]

electromagnetic energy is carried by photons, not electrons....ionic bonds, covalent bonds, and metallic bonds all use the sharing/transfer of electrons to bond to eachother.

these molecules then are held together in my ankle because of gravity, i.e. the molecules attract eachother and they clump up forming the bone.

What? The molecular bonds are what hold the atoms together, and opposite charges are what cause them to bind together. Even covalent bonds are caused by positive charges of the nucleus being attracted to electrons in another atom (though this gets into the fun of electron shells, and octet rules), instead of gravity.

You read the same physics page I posted earlier, where it said:

"The electromagnetic force holds atoms and molecules together. In fact, the forces of electric attraction and repulsion of electric charges are so dominant over the other three fundamental forces that they can be considered to be negligible as determiners of atomic and molecular structure."

The only thing gravity helps your ankle with is getting rid of the ankles that didn't work, through evolution.

and here is the just of how I see the wepon working:

1. Enemy warp bubble would warp space time around it, pulling distant objects toward it, and pushing passing objects away...Jacorn ship in persuit doing the same thing.

2. Graviton torpedo fired, flying accross the fabric of space towards the enemy ship and it's warp bubble.

3.torpedo goes off, the area around the torpedo, which would be on the warp bubble, would undergo a few seconds of distortions, where the gravity affects the warping of the fabric of space-time.

4. Distrotions cause fluxuations in the warp field destablilizing the field.

5. 1)Field collapses, causing the ship to drop out of warp. 2)Field collapses, slamming the ship into the fabric of space time, destroying it or sending it outside of the recognized space. 3) If their lucky they reshape bubble before cataclysm strikes and continue to be hit by another warhead.

What strength will the torpedo being fired have? Also, what range of the warhead detonation do you estimate? I am assuming that the warhead will be detonated ahead of the target, so the target flies into the gravity 'wavefront' rather than running away from it.


Also, what keeps the other ship from firing an EM warhead, and causing everything in the pursuing ship that has a charge to be attracted or repulsed, such as the antimatter in the storage pods? The lead ship just dropped out of warp due to the gravity warhead (if it was powerful enough), while the other ship just had its antimatter shoved against the continment pod walls, causing a 'problem'.

[Lt. Staplic]

What? The molecular bonds are what hold the atoms together, and opposite charges are what cause them to bind together. Even covalent bonds are caused by positive charges of the nucleus being attracted to electrons in another atom (though this gets into the fun of electron shells, and octet rules), instead of gravity.

the atoms may be held together by electromagnetic force, the the molecules are held together by gravity.

Also, what keeps the other ship from firing an EM warhead, and causing everything in the pursuing ship that has a charge to be attracted or repulsed, such as the antimatter in the storage pods? The lead ship just dropped out of warp due to the gravity warhead (if it was powerful enough), while the other ship just had its antimatter shoved against the continment pod walls, causing a 'problem'.

you are way overestimating the stregnth of an EM wepon...The federation does use EM wepons: Phaser, Photon Torpeo. In all the episodes I never saw a photon torpedo with enoght power to destroy an entire fleet

What strength will the torpedo being fired have? Also, what range of the warhead detonation do you estimate? I am assuming that the warhead will be detonated ahead of the target, so the target flies into the gravity 'wavefront' rather than running away from it.

the wepon would detonate on the target and would affect the space with in millionths of a milisecond destabilizing any area of the ship it hits.

[Coalition]

the atoms may be held together by electromagnetic force, the the molecules are held together by gravity.

Again, ionic, covalent, and metallic bonds are what hold the atoms within molecules together. Not gravity. Read the page so you can see just how powerful EM is compared to gravity. If you are still not sure, go back through your high school chemistry books, and read the appropriate sections. If nothing else, go to Books-a-Million or Barnes and Nobles, and look in the chemistry section.

you are way overestimating the stregnth of an EM wepon...The federation does use EM wepons: Phaser, Photon Torpeo. In all the episodes I never saw a photon torpedo with enoght power to destroy an entire fleet

Phasers work more by chain reaction than anything else. That is how you can 'vaporize' a person, and not be killed by the cloud of steam left from their body. I.e. if you vaporize a 50 kg person you get over 30 kg worth of steam. Even at its densest, that steam will expand to take up 10 cubic meters. Of course, if you use the second densest form of steam, that 30 kg of steam becomes 50 cubic meters, or a sphere ~9 meters wide. When was the last time we saw a body hit by a phaser have that effect?

For shipboard phasers, they are sensitive to the materials they are fired at ("Inheritance" had magnesite ore nearly causing feedback).

Photons work by direct damage to the enemy ship, slamming matter and antimatter together and letting the 'results' hit the target ship.

As to the effect of EM weapons, check out "Hero Worship", where an EM pulse took out over 3/4 of the computer's data. Imagine the fun of a battle, the first shots are exchanged, and suddenly your computers crash due to data corruption. On the bright side, they likely won't get any sensitive data from them.

the wepon would detonate on the target and would affect the space with in millionths of a milisecond destabilizing any area of the ship it hits.

Again I ask, what strength? Feel free to provide information from episodes or research from those episodes ("Hero Worship" also had the Ent-D unable to go to Warp 2 due to gravitational distortion, but I don't remember what strength it had).

P.S. 1 millionth of a millisecond = nanosecond. At warp 5, that warhead effect better have a diameter of 64.5 meters or more, in order to catch the ship (speed of warp in m/s * c ratio of warp 5 * time).

[Lt. Staplic]

Lt. Staplic wrote:
the atoms may be held together by electromagnetic force, the the molecules are held together by gravity.

Again, ionic, covalent, and metallic bonds are what hold the atoms within molecules together. Not gravity. Read the page so you can see just how powerful EM is compared to gravity. If you are still not sure, go back through your high school chemistry books, and read the appropriate sections. If nothing else, go to Books-a-Million or Barnes and Nobles, and look in the chemistry section.

well if you read the quoted sentence you'd see I said that the individual molecules, ie. the atoms making up a single molecule, are held to gether by the em force, namely magnetisim as in all but metallic the transfer of electrons from one to another give one a positive charge and the other a negitive which then cause the attraction, this is coupled by attraction of all electrons to all protons. However, my ankle isn't made of one molecule...molecule one, two , three, four and up are held together by gravity.

As to EM wepons, since you won't believe the fact that phasers are EM wepons...phasers are stronger than lasers accroding to trek cannon. lasers are EM wepons, no and's if's or but's about it, so once again we can see that the Federation, nor any othe power is capable of creating an EM wepon as strong as what your talking about.

Again I ask, what strength

As I said in the orrigional post the gravimetric torpedo has a total damage rating of 21 Isotons.

[Mikey]

20 tons seems awfully low. "Iso-" meaning "one."

[Lt. Staplic]

not Iso=1, but Isoton the trek mesuring system for their torpedoes...ie. the Photon is 25 Isotons (at least in this universe it is), the Quantom is 52.3 Isotons.

[JudgeKing]

Maybe Isotons refers to the amount antimatter and matter in the torpedo. That would make some sense wouldn't it?

[Reliant121]

How the hell are you going to get 50 ton of AM/M in a metre long torpedo?!

[Graham Kennedy]

How the hell are you going to get 50 ton of AM/M in a metre long torpedo?!

You use something that's very, very dense.

[JudgeKing]

How the hell are you going to get 50 ton of AM/M in a metre long torpedo?!

Maybe, they can compress matter and antimatter very, very, well.