Tuvix

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:40 pm

As has been mentioned before, Voyager needed every individual it could get, and therefore both from the perspective of both the crew in general and Tuvok and Nelix in particular, the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few...or the one.

CluckyB · Post by **CluckyB** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:01 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:As has been mentioned before, Voyager needed every individual it could get, and therefore both from the perspective of both the crew in general and Tuvok and Nelix in particular, the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few...or the one.

But you do not commit an immoral action to get an additional crew member. They could maybe have found a way to clone crew members, or at least enslaved some inferior species. Both those actions would have increased the crew size... if killing Tuvix to increase crew size is a just action, then so would either of those alternatives. And if you are gonna break the prime directive in such a manner, why did you destroy the array in the first place?

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:08 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:As has been mentioned before, Voyager needed every individual it could get,

No, it didn't. Voyager crewmembers were killed on many occasions and the ship kept running. Losing people may certainly have been an inconvenience, but Voyager did not need every member of the crew to remain operational.

and therefore both from the perspective of both the crew in general and Tuvok and Nelix in particular, the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few...or the one.

You are really suggesting that the government's military need gives it the right to murder people for recruitment purposes?

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:36 pm

No, I'm suggesting that Tuvix's very existence deprived two other individuals of their existence. Given that he shouldn't exist in the first place (Vulcans, Talaxians and flowers not being compatable in most circumstances), his memories and experiences will continue to exist within Tuvok and Nelix, and his continued existence gives you a tactical officer that is 50% Nelix, restoring the natural state of affairs does not appear to be the out-and-out murder that people have been desribing it as.

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:55 pm

I think it's nonsensical to talk about it in terms of people still existing after the process. It's like saying that if I melt the Mona Lisa down and use the paint to make two other paintings, then they are 50% the Mona Lisa. But that doesn't work; the ML is not the paint as such, it is the pattern of the paint.

Similarly with people; you have half your mother's DNA, but you are not half your mother. Tuvix was made from Tom and Neelix, but he was not Tom and Neelix. he was a new person. So the situation did quite simply come down to deliberately murdering one person to save two. And this is NOT how the Federation is meant to work.

Bryan Moore · Post by **Bryan Moore** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:41 pm

In a large sense, it was murder. While I can see her reasoning, the she did destroy another life. But as Graham said, Janeway's way of command was pretty bizarre and often harsh.

Post by **Teaos** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:46 am

Tuvix was never ment to be Tuvok and Nelix were they win.

CluckyB · Post by **CluckyB** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:35 pm

Meant to be? How was Tuvix any less meant to be than Tuvok or Neelix? Maybe Tuvok and Neelix came into existence more naturally, but I don't see how you can say he wasn't 'Meant to be'. How do you know Neelix's parents were trying for a child when they had him?

Tom Riker was created due to a similar transporter accident. And while having two Riker's proved to be a significant security risk, they let Tom lead a normal natural life. How is that any different?

Post by **Teaos** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:24 am

Because letting Tom live didn't kill the other Riker.

RK_Striker_JK_5 · Post by **RK_Striker_JK_5** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:09 am

What about Tuvok and Neelix's right to exist, to throw a bone out there?

Tiberius · Post by **Tiberius** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:21 am

it really comes down to this:

is it morally justifiable to kill one person so two others may live.

And none of that "Tuvok and Neelix still existed inside Tuvix." The people that Tuvok and Neelix were ceased to exist the moment that Tuvix appeared.

RK_Striker_JK_5 · Post by **RK_Striker_JK_5** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:41 am

Tiberius wrote:it really comes down to this:

is it morally justifiable to kill one person so two others may live.

And none of that "Tuvok and Neelix still existed inside Tuvix." The people that Tuvok and Neelix were ceased to exist the moment that Tuvix appeared.

Since neither Tuvok nor Neelix had any say in it... I'd say yes.

Post by **Teaos** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:14 am

In this paticular case I say kill Tuvix and get the other two back. This isn't something people can agree on since it is a moral question.

CluckyB · Post by **CluckyB** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:13 pm

But in "Prey" Janeway defended the life of species 8472 even when doing so put her whole crew at risk. Maybe morally you can feel that sacrificing one alien life to save many others is ok--but at least you can agree that Janeway is a hypocrite . I can't see how she still retains the respect of the crew after her flip-flopping ways.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:05 pm

Janeway isn't exactly the greatest captain ever, nor the smartest. She's also inconsistant. In one episode she might follow the prime directive, and in another ignore it completely. How the hell did she ever get her rank?