Voyagers premise and Janeway "stupidity"

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:03 pm

Excelent analysis, Hair. The problem was, obviously, that the writers simply didn't have a clue. The way they portrayed the whole situation in the pilot episode meant that Janeway passed up a perfectly good opertunity to get home simply due to her own stupidity. There are literaly hundreds of better ways to have them stranded, that don't end up being caused by Janeway's personal stupidity.
For example; let's say the Caretaker dies, and the Kazon come to attack the now defenceless Ocampa. Janeway is urged by members of her crew just to leg it back home, and leave the Ocampa to die. Janeway refuses to stand idly by while billions die, and intercepts the Kazon attack group. They beat the Kazon, but the array that can get them back is destroyed by Kazon ships during the fight.
This way, you end up with Janeway being stranded because she was unwilling to allow billions of deaths, which instantly makes the character far more likeable and realistic.

True but she may not be as tactically minded as a combat professional.

Neither am I, but I can still figure that timer+bomb+array=End of problems. Janeway simply has no excuse for not realising this possibility. Hell, her whole crew is somewhat culpable in this, as no one suggested this to her!

There may have been time for the Kazon to disable the explosive as well.

How? These guys would take an hour to figure out how to change a lightbulb. Do you really think they could figure out how to disarm a totaly alien bomb before it went off?
And besides, you need only set it for a minute or so. Then you just slam on the warp drive, and leg it out of the area. Before the Kazon even arrive, the array blows up. End of problem.
And even if the Kazon could somehow get there, find the bombs, figure out how they work and then disarm them all within a minute or so, there's always the possibility of leaving one crew member behind with a trigger and a bunch of torps. As soon as the Kazon reach the array, boom.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:03 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Of all the major anti-Janeway examples put forth, generally, that's the one I don't have a major problem with. Two crewmen are more useful than one, and you can't afford to have your chief of security splitting his time between the tactical station and the galley. Plus the old adage on the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few...or the one. From that cold use-of-resources approach, Janeway made the right choice.

Those are all valid issues. However if she holds dear the principles she claims to, Tuvix should have been left alone. It's probably one of the more minor problems with her but it was the first that came to mind.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:04 pm

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
Captain Picard's Hair wrote:Even a scientist should understand the notion of timers, though. After all, it's not as though timers don't have applications in science!
True but she may not be as tactically minded as a combat professional. There may have been time for the Kazon to disable the explosive as well.

Weld a box over the timer.

Bryan Moore · Post by **Bryan Moore** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:12 am

I have no problem w/ Janeway's bad decisions in and of themselves, but I absolutely despite the fact that she's so damn inconsistent. Be a c*nt or be a saint, but be consistent. Her interpretations of law depended on her mood. I'm all for dumb decisions, but make them consistently!

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:29 am

Bryan Moore wrote:I have no problem w/ Janeway's bad decisions in and of themselves, but I absolutely despite the fact that she's so damn inconsistent. Be a c*nt or be a saint, but be consistent. Her interpretations of law depended on her mood. I'm all for dumb decisions, but make them consistently!

Exactly, it's almost as if she was changing her beliefs to fit the circumstances. I wonder why that would happen?

mwhittington · Post by **mwhittington** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:10 am

Because she's a female! Women always change their beliefs to fit the situation! I'm married; I'm talking from first-hand experience!

You see, men are problem-solvers: logical and reasonable. Women are empathizers: emotional and hormonal. Each balances the other, but men in general are usually the decision makers because of their problem solving ability. I know this may come off as sexist, but it's the truth.

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:11 am

There were a few things that really bugged me about Janeway. The timer thing doesn't, really, in fact. I didn't think of using a timer myself when I first saw the episode, so I was able to forgive the fact that Janeway didn't!

The first thing that bothered me was The Swarm... she just decided to tresspass into alien territory, completely ignoring the advice of her local guide that the owners were hostile. And she did it completely at the drop of a hat, like it was just a whim for her.

The Tuvix thing reeeeealy bothered me. Janeway shares with Will Riker the honour of being the only "good" Starfleet officer to deliberately murder a person.

We could go on and on I'm sure. But then, when she meets Ransom and the Equinox, he asks her if she has ever broken the Prime Directive, and she casually says no, but she's bent it a couple of times. An absolute, direct, flat out lie.

Stuff like this really bothered me. Janeway was the rah rah cheerleader for Federation ethics one day, even if it meant sacrificing her entire crew. And then then next she would completely ignore those self same principles for the most trivial of reasons. And nobody on board so much as raised an eyebrow over it.

Contrast this with Enterprise's third season. Lord knows I am no fan of Enterprise, but when Archer started breaking the ethics he lived by in season 3, the show deliberately made a plot point of it. They showed him getting more and more desperate, they showed him fighting with his conscience over it, and after things like the airlock torture incident they made a point of bringing it up again and again; Archer himself being bitter over his choices, other people throwing it in his face, you name it. That's the kind of thing that would have worked well with Janeway. But instead, she'd break the rules for stupid reasons, then it would be laughed off or simply forgotten afterwards.

Poor writing. Little wonder Ron Moore met with the reception he did on Voyager.

Bryan Moore · Post by **Bryan Moore** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:50 am

The Tuvix thing reeeeealy bothered me. Janeway shares with Will Riker the honour of being the only "good" Starfleet officer to deliberately murder a person.

When was this?

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:43 am

I think people over state just how bad Janeway was.

Its the same as Wesley hate. He wasnt THAT bad but because he was the worst people tend to magnify their hate of them.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:30 am

Yeah, the Wesley thing is way overstated. The only thing he did was stand around, and be a total Mary-Sue.
Janeway, on the other hand, is fully deserving of our opinions. Her idiocy cost the lives of many, which is far worse than the most annoying Wesley moment.

Reliant121 · Post by **Reliant121** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:56 am

Janeways only redeeming quality is that she had far more of a backbone than Picard, in my view. Sure that backbone got the ship and its crew into danger FAR too many times, but at least she had it.
And her stickin to morals thing was annoying. She should of learned from Seven. ADAPT Woman!

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:40 am

Personally, I'd say it was Picard who had more backbone. Other than get her crew into trouble on a weekly basis, what couragous features has she displayed? Picard, on the other hand, had a clear set of morals, and stood up for them.

Reliant121 · Post by **Reliant121** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:00 am

meh...morals are the very thing that prevented Janeway from getting her crew home ALOT quicker. She had more back than Picard cause she stuck to her morals in tougher situations than Picard

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:02 am

Such as?

Reliant121 · Post by **Reliant121** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:05 am

Prime example would be Series 6...Void. She, even though it didn't mean getting home quicker, stuck to her morals and denied herself and the ship the advantages of stealing from other vessels, the home tactic of the enivronment.