Shooting at US uni

[Reliant121]

I was in Italy then, in a little town near Rome

[sunnyside]

well i've never heard of gunman rampaging in modern British schools...Why would it happen in primeraly America and not anywhere else? Drug problems...more people in general?

Don't you guys get any American rap music over there? Ever listen to the lyrics?

America has some serious inner city problems. There are large sections of any big city where drugs and unemployment are the norm. The dealers cut up territory and often fight over it. And they get away with it in their communities.

I'm in Philadelphia at the moment (AKA Killadelphia). A while back there was a major gun battle at a school. Essentially one group of dealers jumped another group of dealers while they were dropping off their kids.

There was a running gun battle between the two groups. About 50 rounds were fired in all, in broad daylight, in front of what must have been hundreds of witnesses.

Nobody saw anything..........

They were also bad shots and none of the gang members actually hit each other, just some bystanders and the one dead boy.

Of course there was outrage, but when the cops went around, nobody saw anything. No one would testify. The news media knew who did it. But you can't prosecute based on that.

And yes people started talking about banning guns. But these were drug gangs, the idea that a gun ban would be any more effective on them than the current drug bans is retarded.

At any rate it's a different situation in Britain I imiagine. At least I'd hope in most of Britain if there was a street battle in front of a shool while the kids were being dropped off somebody might see something. Do you guys even have large drug gangs?

These problems are what America has to deal with. There is a subculture and very unsecure boarders making a big effect.

Oh and in case you thought I was joking. Sorry
http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/view.php?id=11846

[Reliant121]

well i've never heard of gunman rampaging in modern British schools...Why would it happen in primeraly America and not anywhere else? Drug problems...more people in general?

Don't you guys get any American rap music over there? Ever listen to the lyrics?

America has some serious inner city problems. There are large sections of any big city where drugs and unemployment are the norm. The dealers cut up territory and often fight over it. And they get away with it in their communities.

I'm in Philadelphia at the moment (AKA Killadelphia). A while back there was a major gun battle at a school. Essentially one group of dealers jumped another group of dealers while they were dropping off their kids.

There was a running gun battle between the two groups. About 50 rounds were fired in all, in broad daylight, in front of what must have been hundreds of witnesses.

Nobody saw anything..........

They were also bad shots and none of the gang members actually hit each other, just some bystanders and the one dead boy.

Of course there was outrage, but when the cops went around, nobody saw anything. No one would testify. The news media knew who did it. But you can't prosecute based on that.

And yes people started talking about banning guns. But these were drug gangs, the idea that a gun ban would be any more effective on them than the current drug bans is retarded.

At any rate it's a different situation in Britain I imiagine. At least I'd hope in most of Britain if there was a street battle in front of a shool while the kids were being dropped off somebody might see something. Do you guys even have large drug gangs?

These problems are what America has to deal with. There is a subculture and very unsecure boarders making a big effect.

Oh and in case you thought I was joking. Sorry
http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/view.php?id=11846

We sometimes do get american rap music...but i can't understand the lyrics.

[sunnyside]

We sometimes do get american rap music...but i can't understand the lyrics.

I googled 50 cent lyrics(he's the most famous rapper here I know of, but I don't follow that scene) here you go.
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/50cent/gunrunners.html

I also found a fun album cover of his
http://www.soundkink.com/music-301668-B ... _Back.html

Oh and his major hit that even I know so maybe you guys do to.

http://www.stlyrics.com/songs/0-9/50cen ... 24487.html

Now I'm not neccesarily blaming rap music for the problems in America. But I think it's a very honest reflection of the culture that millions of Americans live in.

[Reliant121]

ughhh...the first link was all i could bear to read...1) how can somone pevert English in that way and 2) If thats what many youth cultures in america listen to, then we're all buggered.

[Enkidu]

Don't worry, we get rap music over here, along with the ridiculous spectacle of some middle class white kids dressing up in those stupid loose clothes, cause they are like, well gangsta, you know?
Rather more seriously, the gang culture portrayed in rap music has become the lifestyle of choice of many deprived inner city blacks, which has led to an explosion of gun crime. Most shootings in the UK are carried out by young black men, and most victims are from the same demographic group. Many of the weapons come from the looting of the vast arsenals of the former Warsaw Pact, along with a steady trickle from returning soliders smuggling in war booty. However, there was a big police operation about a year back which shut down a smuggling operation bringing in guns from the US. The guns are a fashion statement as well as a weapon, and they want the guns that the rappers sing about and pose with on the album covers, such as MAC 10's.

[Sionnach Glic]

Unfortunately, we do get (c)rap music over here. It's sadly popular among the local knackers. Still, I really don't understand how listening to a freakin' song helps this idiocy along......

[sunnyside]

Music is extremely powerful. It sounds like in the case of the British "knackers" it's probably largely due to the music and fame of these people.

In America though the rappers came from the culture not vice versa. However the music does reinforce the problem. As well as the success of the drug dealers.

[Captain Seafort]

Sunny, Britain does have gang problems - all major cities have them. We also have problems with the culture of silence you mention, either through fear or the refusal to be a "grass".

However, your statement that "the idea that a gun ban would be any more effective on them than the current drug bans is retarded" fails to take note of the fact that guns are big lumps of metal. Drugs aren't. True, banning guns won't stop gun murders, just as there are still gun murders here, but making handguns illegal makes it a good deal more difficult for the gangs in question to get their hands on firearms.

Look at the numbers I posted - the US has more than 200 times as many firearms murders as the UK, despite only having five times the population, and firearm are responsible for more than two-thirds of all murders, compared to fewer than a tenth in the UK. Are you trying to tell me that that disparity is due solely to worse gang problems?

[sunnyside]

The classic example to pull out at this point is Switzerland where EVERY male was required to have a gun and they had very low rates of all this stuff.

Also the guns are already here. And moreover they're smuggling in drugs in large quantities. PEOPLE are getting smuggled over by the thousand and people are rather larger than guns. Also in theory guns would be easier to smuggle because it wouldn't be illegal to have or buy them on their side of the boarder.

Some of the heroin routes might be hard to swap to guns though.

Also there is the question of whether a murder with a gun would just be replaced by a murder with a knife. Let a friend of mine had a friend who was killed by her boyfriend in a murder suicide. He did use a gun, but I'm sure he could have used something else. If anything he probably just wanted his own death to be quick.

And I'm without figures at the moment but within the US having tighter gun laws tends to make problems worse and loser ones tend to make them better. I'll grant that this is due to people being able to have a buddy across a state line get them guns so it's just the locals and shop owners etc who are disarmed.

But I think we'd see the same thing played out with the Mexico boarder and the locals would be all of America.

Remember you guys are an Island and so are a bit easier to secure. Also you don't have a stockpile of millions of guns on hand. It's a lot easeri to ban something before everyone has one.

[Enkidu]

It should also be noted that both the major spree shootings carried out in Britain where carried out by gun enthusiasts, whose arsenal's included legally held licenced weapons. (Both times leading to a tightening of gun laws.) I think it would now be fairly difficult to acquire the amount of ammunition needed for one of these crimes in Britain, or another country with tight gun laws. After all, the risks to gun dealers of selling illegal ammunition is the same as trading in weapons, with smaller profits, and most criminals don't need that much.

[Enkidu]

Also there is the question of whether a murder with a gun would just be replaced by a murder with a knife. Let a friend of mine had a friend who was killed by her boyfriend in a murder suicide. He did use a gun, but I'm sure he could have used something else. If anything he probably just wanted his own death to be quick.

I'm not Rambo, but as a fairly well built man in my early thirties, if attacked with a knife, I would at least have a fighting chance, if escape was not an option. With a gun, I'd be fucked.
A few years ago, a nutter armed with a machete attacked a nursery school (Kindergarten) IIRC he wounded a couple of kids before been tackled by a rather slight, rather brave, twentysomething female teacher (I forget her name) who was able to fight him until help arrived. She was fairly badly hurt, but she and her pupils survived. It was a rather different story when Thomas Hamilton went on his rampage at Dunblane Infants.

[Captain Seafort]

The classic example to pull out at this point is Switzerland where EVERY male was required to have a gun and they had very low rates of all this stuff.

True, but the big problem with guns, both here and in the US isn't assault rifles - which is what the Swiss are required to own as members of their militia

Some of the heroin routes might be hard to swap to guns though.

A lot will be very difficult to use, since it's easier to smuggle drugs than big lumps of metal, and some will be impossible to use, since you can't swallow guns.

Also there is the question of whether a murder with a gun would just be replaced by a murder with a knife. Let a friend of mine had a friend who was killed by her boyfriend in a murder suicide. He did use a gun, but I'm sure he could have used something else. If anything he probably just wanted his own death to be quick.

As I said, there will still be murders. You cannot, however, kill someone with a knife from twenty feet away. With a gun you can do so easily.

Remember you guys are an Island and so are a bit easier to secure. Also you don't have a stockpile of millions of guns on hand. It's a lot easeri to ban something before everyone has one.

That's the single biggest issue with US gun-control - how to deal with the vast number of weapons already present. I must admit to not having a specific answer to this point.

The fundamental principle and numerical comparisons stand, however - that Britain, with strict gun control legislation, has vastly fewer firearms-related murders, in absolute terms, as a proportion of the population, and as a proportion of total murders, than the extremely relaxed legislation of the United States.

[Captain Seafort]

A few years ago, a nutter armed with a machete attacked a nursery school (Kindergarten) IIRC he wounded a couple of kids before been tackled by a rather slight, rather brave, twentysomething female teacher (I forget her name) who was able to fight him until help arrived. She was fairly badly hurt, but she and her pupils survived. It was a rather different story when Thomas Hamilton went on his rampage at Dunblane Infants.

Lisa Potts - she was awarded the George Medal for her actions.

[sunnyside]

What the swiss aren't allowed to own handguns?

And I had admitted the heroin routes might be hard to swap to handguns. But the overland stuff and shipping. That would be easier than drugs, again because you wouldn't have to hide the stuff on the approach. Only after you'd crossed the boarder. And then there is the Canadian boarder which isn't even remotely secure.

And the "guns already in the US" problem is a big one. It's not like gun ownership is some weird thing done by a handful of people. It used to be 50% of households legally had a gun in the early 90's. Now I think it's more like 40% but I imiagine illegal guns bring it back up to 50%. And people tend to own more than one gun. From surveys done a while back there must be over 200,000,000 guns in private hands in the US.

(By the way when trying to find the above figures I ran across
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp which is interesting and has some of the figures where at least local gun restrictions increase crime and allowing more citizens to legally carry them reduces crime).

Honestly though, if there was a way to just wash away all guns in the US and prevent any more from getting in I would support a number of bans.

However I have little confidence, given the current state of things, that even total bans would remove guns from criminals.