Ship of the week: Negh’Var

[Deepcrush]

Where the Dominion is another story, I myself feel that it's more then possible for the KE to build such a fleet. The bulk of their fleet is in ruins. Crippled or destroyed from nearly 20 years of on again off again wars. The KDF in truth won't have much upgrading to do. It's going to be mostly a rebuilding effort. At some point in time the KE was able to match the power of the UFP which by rights should have had a far more massive resource and population value. This lends for me the belief that the KE is very well organized at producing and maintaining a large military. The first time and the only time that we ever saw the KE are the ones to propose peace was after Praxis. That was for the cost to rebuild there entire home world. That must not have lasted very long as by the time of TNG-YE the KE was able to face the UFP in a 20 year war and win. The biggest problem for the KDF isn't that they can't build their fleet back up. We've seen them do it so many times that we know they can. What is the biggest problem for them is that their version of an escort / scout ship is the BoP where the UFP now has the Defiant. The best part of the old Klingon fleet is now obsolete. They need a new escort class ship. Otherwise their fall from power is going to continue. They have ten years to rebuild. At the UFP rate (since we don't have a rate of build for the KDF) that would be around 400 ships a year. That's 4,000 ships by the time that they should reenter the AQ superpowers stage. The UFP isn't going to jump for a war and the RSE isn't in any shape to do anything without help. The CU who had the chance to become a superpower just went in the bucket. They'll no doubt need the next 50 years to recover from this. No one is around who's going to start a fight against the KE. They have time, peace and the ability to do this. Again what they need is the WILL to do it. To push themselves harder then ever to achieve what could be theirs.

As to the relations between the UFP and the KE? First off with Martok in power, Worf by his side and the UFP and most of the KDF supporting him. There's just no one who can challenge him. His house is no doubt stronger with the addition of Worf's former holdings. Martok is the hero of the Empire! Even Gowron feared him, the same Gowron who was willing to face Worf in single combat twice! What Martok wants, he'll get. Also, for the first time the KE has fought to the finish with an ally. The UFP-SF has proven its self a worthy friend and ally to the KDF. Stood beside each other through good and bad, thick and thin. Neither willing to surrender or back down. That's the kind of thing that the KE respects. The best thing for the KE is to spend time on the open market, away from constant war and to rebuild some of their culture that isn't only built on fighting. Its time for them to start making babies!

[Teaos]

This lends for me the belief that the KE is very well organized at producing and maintaining a large military.

It was said that they devote a huge amount of their resourses to military. This is most likely at a cost of science and reserch. So while they may be able to field a massive fleet that fleet will fall further and further behind the Feds.

[Granitehewer]

although contructing a vessel like the negh'var or even using the small yet powerful vor'cha cruiser as an example, does show that the klingons do have some impressive research and development

[Mikey]

True - just because it seems to be focused completely towards military purposes doesn't mean "inferior" or "incapable." Where we've seen slowdown is in things like the uncanny longevity of things like the BoP or D-7; but that can be attributed to a more pragmatic, "don't fix it if ain't broke" philosophy more than to any R&D inability.

[Sionnach Glic]

Agreed. The Klingon designs are well suited for their purpose: combat. For other purposes, I'd imagine they'd have other ships specialised for those roles.

[KuvahMagh]

I think the Klingon Industrial Capability has been overstated, in The Way of the Warrior when they intended to invade Cardassia they still had the old K'tinga/D-7 design in their Fleet and that was well before they took losses and would be required to pull them out of mothballs which leads me to believe that they have yet to construct replacements for these ships despite the age of the design.

That was for the cost to rebuild there entire home world. That must not have lasted very long as by the time of TNG-YE the KE was able to face the UFP in a 20 year war and win.

Th4e problem with the YE argument is that history followed a different course so there is no way to say how they were winning, it is also equally possible that they were winning because of Starfleet's inability to fight a war, those who argue that the Klingons MUST be able to mass produce such a Fleet, I have a rock that keeps tigers away that I'll let you have for $100.

We've seen them do it so many times that we know they can.

I really don't recall any point where they have lost so much and would be faced with replacing those along with upgrading almost EVERY existing ship they have.

The best part of the old Klingon fleet is now obsolete.

Its been or on the verge of being obsolete since the beginning of TNG, nevermind the Defiant. They just have refused to admit it.

They have ten years to rebuild. At the UFP rate (since we don't have a rate of build for the KDF) that would be around 400 ships a year.

I missed where they gave us 400 a year for SF, which episode was that?

His house is no doubt stronger with the addition of Worf's former holdings.

What holdings, Worf basically committed Treason, then continued to fight against the Klingon Empire. Even Kurn said that he had disgraced their family, lossing his seat on the council and all his honor, I doubt Worf would have much sway left. Even halfway through the War Worf diod not believe he had any sway with Gowron (Favour the Bold, Sacrafice of Angels).

The UFP-SF has proven its self a worthy friend and ally to the KDF

I'll give you the Dominion War on that point but they also turned against them during the Cardassian War. You still forget that if relations thaw with the Romulans then the Klingons could feel pushed aside, regardless of whether or not they are, they are a proud people who wouldn't take to that happily.

The best thing for the KE is to spend time on the open market, away from constant war and to rebuild some of their culture that isn't only built on fighting.

They spent a long time before the Dominion War at peace, Worf references this a few times saying that many feel the Empire is growing weak from being at peace for so long. All that produced was an obsolete overstretched Fleet, what makes you believe this will do anything different.

Alot of your argument seems to be based on Martok as Chanceller but I don't think we have seen anything that indicates he would make a good Chanceller, there is a difference from being a General and being President. Much of Martok's time was spent during the War organizing Small Squadrons or single ship actions, on the grand scale we seen him involved rarely, mostly only there to hear the plan. He didn't seem to have much to do with building the plan or even implementing it on a grand scale, despite his being the Commander of the 9th Fleet, a Fleet which we never heard referenced in a large scale, or even medium scale engagement IIRC.

[mwhittington]

The Vor'Cha and BoP are to ST for space combat what the AK-47 is to modern day infantry for firearms. Both are butt-ugly, but they are both damned reliable and tough as nails. That's why lots of American troops in Vietnam preferred the Kalashnikov to the piece o'sh*t M16.

[Tsukiyumi]

That's why lots of American troops in Vietnam preferred the Kalashnikov to the piece o'sh*t M16.

This is true. The M16A4 still has reliability issues.

[mwhittington]

Much like the Galaxy Class...do I sense a greater coincidense here?

[Captain Seafort]

Th4e problem with the YE argument is that history followed a different course so there is no way to say how they were winning, it is also equally possible that they were winning because of Starfleet's inability to fight a war, those who argue that the Klingons MUST be able to mass produce such a Fleet, I have a rock that keeps tigers away that I'll let you have for $100.

For a war that long the abilities of the various combatants are less important than industrial capacity. Take WW2 for example - when the skills of the various armies on the battlefield were the decisive factor the Germans were able to take on all and sundry. Once the heavy industry of the USA and the USSR was brought to bear Germany was doomed, despite repeated tactical and operational-level successes. The Klingons would, at the very least, have had to match the UFP's industrial output to drive them to within 6 months of defeat, and given Fed technological superiority they'd probably have had to substantially out build them.

I missed where they gave us 400 a year for SF, which episode was that?

He's out by an order of magnitude. The UFP can produce about 40 ships over and above normal replacement, per BoBW Pt 2.

[KuvahMagh]

He's out by an order of magnitude. The UFP can produce about 40 ships over and above normal replacement, per BoBW Pt 2.

Thanks Seafort, I haven't rewatched TNG in a while. I did think his numbers were a bit high though.

As to the War though, what I meant was more along the lines of history could have changed drastically between the loss of the E-C, half the worlds could have bailed and signed individual surrenders, Major Fed production centers could have been destroyed early in the War leaving them with a much lower capacity, the Klingons could have used a Viral/Biogenic/WMD on a number of planet to take them and their capacity out of the question, Q could have given the Klingons Uber Weapons, what I mean is that there are too many variables for us to proclaim this as an exact example of Klingon Industrial Capacity.

[Captain Seafort]

As to the War though, what I meant was more along the lines of history could have changed drastically between the loss of the E-C, half the worlds could have bailed and signed individual surrenders, Major Fed production centers could have been destroyed early in the War leaving them with a much lower capacity, the Klingons could have used a Viral/Biogenic/WMD on a number of planet to take them and their capacity out of the question, Q could have given the Klingons Uber Weapons, what I mean is that there are too many variables for us to proclaim this as an exact example of Klingon Industrial Capacity.

I'm not claiming it's an exact depiction of what the real KDF is capable of. What I am pointing out is that it's close enough to Starfleet that it can sustain such a long-term conflict. We've saw little evidence in either TOS that the Klingon border zone was anything but that - a border zone, not a key industrial area. TNG went further to depict most of Starfleet's shipbuilding capacity concentrated in the Solar System. This is strong evidence against the possibility of a strong initial Klingon offensive taking or destroying a substantial chunk of the Feds industrial base, which is the only theory which would reconcile the observed course of the war with an industrially weak Empire.

[KuvahMagh]

We've saw little evidence in either TOS that the Klingon border zone was anything but that - a border zone, not a key industrial area. TNG went further to depict most of Starfleet's shipbuilding capacity concentrated in the Solar System.

Agreed but I still think YE is shaky ground to base an entire argument on, and other than that I have seen little to back up the idea that the Klingons can do what he claims they can. It should also be noted that the period in time in question was one of obsolesce for Starfleet, most of their Fleet was Excelsior/Miranda based which was starting to show its age with only a few Ambassadors and presumably even fewer Galaxy/Nebula.

which is the only theory which would reconcile the observed course of the war with an industrially weak Empire.

We've seen before that the Federation is slow to respond to a War, it is also possible that they could have tried to work out a Peace too long and left themselves under prepared, or like I mentioned, Systems could have left and surrendered, left because they didn't feel it was their war or any other possible turn of events.

Besides all of that, even assuming that their industrial strength was so great, I imagine most of what they were building would be the same obsolete design with a few of those upscaled BoP thrown in. We were shown no evidence of bold new design, the other ships shown were upscaled BoP which didn't seem to work out too well in our universe.

The Vor'Cha and BoP are to ST for space combat what the AK-47 is to modern day infantry for firearms. Both are butt-ugly, but they are both damned reliable and tough as nails.

I think your wrong on both the BoP and Vor'Cha, I find them both quite attractive, the Vor'Cha more so than the BoP. The BoP is getting a little old though and is probably not what she used to be, even with refits. I also don't think the AK is that ugly either, of course I find the M-16 to be hideous, the M-4 on the other hand, now they got the appearance right there lol.

[Teaos]

I think we will stell be seeing the BoP around for another 50 years at least. It is to good at a boarder patrol craft. Also the Klingons wont just scrap them they will sell them to people making sure they are still a common site for some time to come.

[Duskofdead]

I think we will stell be seeing the BoP around for another 50 years at least. It is to good at a boarder patrol craft. Also the Klingons wont just scrap them they will sell them to people making sure they are still a common site for some time to come.

It is worth noting that BOP's have never been seen in future timeline episodes. It appears their lifespan as a "common sight vessel" of the KDF is nearing an end.