Fighter or Fodder?

[Sionnach Glic]

The federation is really picky about superhuman anythings. For example they've had the ability to make augments for ages. (Khan) and could make tons of people like Bashier if they were so inclined. And you can't even hack them. But again there are problems with that the federation doesn't want to touch (again Khan).

Because they find the idea of genetic manipulation moraly and philosophically horrific.

In short no matter how much better an AI may be the Feds won't ever just use them instead of humans.

There are none of the moral or philosophical problems that would come about from using augments if you use holograms. One is a computer, one is a person.

They won't even let people use stuff like VISORs or other cyberware kinds of things unless they're disabled.

1) Where did we hear this?
2) It could just be that nobody wants them, they are rather ridiculous looking. I'll stick with the glasses, thanks.

I supposed I'd have to look at the Kazon dogfight again.

That was just one example, in nearly every dogfight ever shown, we've always seen the pilot constantly tapping the controls.

In a dogfight kind of thing I'd expect them to have the pilot be active and pushing a lot of buttons, it's good TV

Its also canon.

but I doubt they're pushing buttons in the way you'd have to in order to actually fly on manual. They could be tweaking engine power levels, doing stuff with the weapons, remodulating the shields etc etc etc.

And why couldn't the computer do this itself? If its smart enough to fly the ship itself (something we have never seen happening) then it should be smart enough to do all those other things.
And we've heard the pilot tell the computer to perform these functions many times, which would logicaly point out that that's no what they're doing.

Just that what they're typing isn't "don't hit that" it's something at a higher level.

We have no canon evidence that they're doing anything but flying the ship.

[Sionnach Glic]

The federation is really picky about superhuman anythings. For example they've had the ability to make augments for ages. (Khan) and could make tons of people like Bashier if they were so inclined. And you can't even hack them. But again there are problems with that the federation doesn't want to touch (again Khan).

Because they find the idea of genetic manipulation moraly and philosophically horrific.

In short no matter how much better an AI may be the Feds won't ever just use them instead of humans.

There are none of the moral or philosophical problems that would come about from using augments if you use holograms. One is a computer, one is a person.

They won't even let people use stuff like VISORs or other cyberware kinds of things unless they're disabled.

1) Where did we hear this?
2) It could just be that nobody wants them, they are rather ridiculous looking. I'll stick with the glasses, thanks.

I supposed I'd have to look at the Kazon dogfight again.

That was just one example, in nearly every dogfight ever shown, we've always seen the pilot constantly tapping the controls.

In a dogfight kind of thing I'd expect them to have the pilot be active and pushing a lot of buttons, it's good TV

Its also canon.

but I doubt they're pushing buttons in the way you'd have to in order to actually fly on manual. They could be tweaking engine power levels, doing stuff with the weapons, remodulating the shields etc etc etc.

And why couldn't the computer do this itself? If its smart enough to fly the ship itself (something we have never seen happening) then it should be smart enough to do all those other things.
And we've heard the pilot tell the computer to perform these functions many times, which would logicaly point out that that's no what they're doing.

Just that what they're typing isn't "don't hit that" it's something at a higher level.

We have no canon evidence that they're doing anything but flying the ship.

[Thorin]

No idea what you're arguing about but I read your post about us never seeing the ship flying itself - Message in a Bottle, the USS Prometheus. It had all its own manouvres and not only flew (and attacked) completely automatically, but also controlled the other two "parts".

[Sionnach Glic]

I know, but wasn't it being controlled by a crew? And we're talking about shuttles and fighters, rather than starships. It was probably before you joined, but we had a massive twelve page long debate on the Prometheus. I think we fleshed every little detail and flaw of the ship down to the last bolt.

[Thorin]

I know, but wasn't it being controlled by a crew?

No. There were 2 EMHs onboard. And the computer just said "select target" and they shouted "Romulans". It then proceeded, with no interference from the EMHs what so ever, to destroy a warbird while flying itself.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'll have to watch that episode again. That hints at a good level of computers in the Federation, although we more or less knew that already.

We have never, however, seen something like that on a shuttle. The sheer size of the Prometheus would allow it to have greater computer power.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

A fighter wouldn't normally be able to support the same power intensive AI programs. If they could a shuttle could be equiped with holo-emitters and an EMH. And as for flying a fighter, there is no way a computer will be able to fly better in a dogfight. I find the very idea insulting.

Also an earlier comment brought up computer simulations where you could fly by using the keyboard. I have done that, and I have flown in a real simulater and when your doing twists and turns the last thing you'll want is a keyboard. As for power control and maybe secondary weapon control to the GIB, that's what he's there for.

[Mikey]

We have never, however, seen something like that on a shuttle. The sheer size of the Prometheus would allow it to have greater computer power.

True, but there would be far less for the computer to do on a shuttle as opposed to a full-sized starship. Only one room to control fir life support; far simpler inertial dampers; far fewer station-keeping and maneuvering thrusters; simpler SIF (due to lower top speeds;) etc.

That said, however, I would rather have a degree of pilot control over computer control. Remember that even in 'Trek, with its advanced computing, the most succesful combat maneuvers (the Picard Maneuver et. al.) were succesful because they were INNOVATIVE. You cannot presume to have your computer be creative for you, unless you have something like William Gibson's Wintermute flying for you - and then, you probably don't want to be aboard...

[Teaos]

Unlikely. A joystick would be far more reliable, allow for greater reaction times, and fails spectacularly at blowing up in the pilots face.

It may be just as prone to blowing up. Since we never see them we don't know. You could get a joystick through the eye if it does though.

A fighter wouldn't normally be able to support the same power intensive AI programs.

Why not. The doctor is held in the mobile emiter. Granted that is future tech but there is no reason to assume it is high powered.

As for reaction times of consol vs joystick I don't see how anyone would be faster. You need to go up? Press the joystick foward or press a button. Same amount of time.

[sunnyside]

I do like the idea that the pilot is still important. The AI can go through the manuvers and keep from crashing better than you. But probably doesn't get "the big picture" and all that as well. And again to prevent renegade hacked ships and rogue AIs they're probably a bit limited.

As for stuff blowing up there isn't any reason why a touchscreen is more destructive than a hud and joystick. I used to work with a bunch of them and they never even fizzled at me. I don't think we have any idea why consols do that, so it isn't particularily fair to assume a joystick would prevent it (maybe the engineers just need to move the EPS conduits away from where people sit?)

[Captain Seafort]

As for reaction times of consol vs joystick I don't see how anyone would be faster. You need to go up? Press the joystick foward or press a button. Same amount of time.

But you have to find the button, then decide how much up or down you want, then enter the sequence. With a stick you're already holding it, so you just push. I'd compare console control to finding your way around Windows without a mouse - possible, but more complicated.

[Captain Seafort]

The Doctor can't be killed during a battle, a deranged patient can't attack him and kill him, he can't be infected by virii, he should be immune to human error, he should have an entire databank of knowledge at his fingertips, he should be able to perform surgery without mistakes and do a host of other things, if he was as good as you indicate. The possility of someone hacking into the Doctors program in miniscule compared to the risk of having a living Doctor.

The Doctor can be killed (sort of). If one of Starfleet's omnipresent packets of C-4 goes off behind an emitter it would reduce his mobility, if they loose power it would knock him off-line. We've also seen him go into a programming loop in "Latent Image" when confronted with identical injuries but only enough time to treat one. Humans wouldn't have either of these problems. He's also been stolen from the computer a few times, and Jetrel managed to turn him off (albeit using a Voyager-EMH specific command). Finally, his program almost collapsed in "The Swarm" when his memory space ran out having been clogged by opera, dancing lessons, photography and the like. He's got plenty of problems, albeit different ones than a human.

[Teaos]

But you have to find the button, then decide how much up or down you want, then enter the sequence. With a stick you're already holding it, so you just push. I'd compare console control to finding your way around Windows without a mouse - possible, but more complicated.

Find a button? Do you look at the keyboard when you type? Because the vast majority of people dont need to and that upwards of 40 buttons.

You want to go foward a bit tap foward. You want to dive hold it down. Not really hard. You want to do a complicated move? Press a predesigned button... cant to that with a joystick.

If power goes off your screwed no matter what. A joystick is power steering.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

But you have to find the button, then decide how much up or down you want, then enter the sequence. With a stick you're already holding it, so you just push. I'd compare console control to finding your way around Windows without a mouse - possible, but more complicated.

Find a button? Do you look at the keyboard when you type? Because the vast majority of people dont need to and that upwards of 40 buttons.

You want to go foward a bit tap foward. You want to dive hold it down. Not really hard. You want to do a complicated move? Press a predesigned button... cant to that with a joystick.

If power goes off your screwed no matter what. A joystick is power steering.

Have you ever flown any aircraft? Or even a motion simulater? Or a video game. There's a reason why you almost never see a gamer use a keyboard for any type of game. And if you're using a keyboard you could easily make a mistake when pressing a button. The few times I've tried playing a flying game with a keyboard I would often die because I pressed the wrong button. And if your bouncing around in a fighter and your hand slips, it could take as many as five seconds to put your hand where it's supposed to be, and in a dogfight 5 seconds is an eternity. With a joystick you can easily just grab it. And it's much harder to let go of a joystick in the first place. You can easily assign a few preprogamed manuvers to a butten on the joystick. Or if you set it up like an F-16's cockpit you could leave your left hand free to use a small console for those pre-programed moves. (if any pilot is too lazy to fly his own ship.

[Teaos]

Yes I have played flight simulators quite a bit. I prefer using a keyboard for them. I find it a more comfortable position for my hands and I am so used to using a keyboard for typing the keys come so naturally I seldom slip up unless I change from my PC to laptop. Then its just a case of the keys being smaller and me needing half an hour to get used to it.

And if your bouncing around while usong a consol your hands fly off. If you bounce while holding a joystick you could very well send your fighter into something.

PS New Avatar. Goodbye naughty nurse hello Marvin.