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Cpl Kendall wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote: Ya. IMO, DS9 is the best series, but Ent is my favorite. I think the complaints are from the old guys who take TOS and TNG as gospel because they're the first so therefore they're the best and can't be retconed because of it or somethng. Or something like that. All ENT did was take the assumptions the fans made about Canon and changed it.

Not quite, for those of us who've been around since before TNG we remember that TOS was a groundbreaking series, they had three different races onscreen in the 60's. When Blacks still had to ride on the back of the bus. What ground did ENT break?

But my points about TOS and TNG fans getting pissed about ENT changing their assumptions or retconning the older series are still valid.

And if these people who voted for older weapons didn't like ENT then why are they participating in an ENT RPG in the first place?

ChakatBlackstar wrote:

Monroe wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote:Okay, but I still don't get it

Likewise... ENT is my favorite series. >.>

Ya. IMO, DS9 is the best series, but Ent is my favorite. I think the complaints are from the old guys who take TOS and TNG as gospel because they're the first so therefore they're the best and can't be retconed because of it or somethng. Or something like that. All ENT did was take the assumptions the fans made about Canon and changed it.

*AHEM* If you haven't noticed, I'm not one of the "old guys" (and I resent that classification) and I dislike Enterprise just as much. TOS and TNG came first and established the back story, later series have a responsibility to uphold that backstory, not manipulate it to get ratings. Otherwise its not Trek, it's some imposter with the "Star Trek" name pasted on top.

I do agree that DS9 was the best series though (it's also my fav. series but obviously only Blackstars opinion matters)

me,myself and I wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
Ya. IMO, DS9 is the best series, but Ent is my favorite. I think the complaints are from the old guys who take TOS and TNG as gospel because they're the first so therefore they're the best and can't be retconed because of it or somethng. Or something like that. All ENT did was take the assumptions the fans made about Canon and changed it.

*AHEM* If you haven't noticed, I'm not one of the "old guys" (and I resent that classification) and I dislike Enterprise just as much. TOS and TNG came first and established the back story, later series have a responsibility to uphold that backstory, not manipulate it to get ratings. Otherwise its not Trek, it's some imposter with the "Star Trek" name pasted on top.

First of all, they never did change anything that was canon, and when they did bend it there was some excuse(some lame but still valid) as to why it would affect later canon. For example, does the fact that spock said they used lasers and atomic warhead mean that only those weapons were used? Couldn't they have been used in addition to phase cannons and photonic torpedoes?

Second of all, plenty of popular series have retconed things from a series or movie they were a spin-off of, or sometimes retconned their own series, Stargate SG-1 was known for that(third shot vaporizes for example)but I never hear any complaints about that.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
But my points about TOS and TNG fans getting pissed about ENT changing their assumptions or retconning the older series are still valid.

Look there are three series after TOS that either backed up TOS or didn't contradict it. Then ENT comes along.

And if these people who voted for older weapons didn't like ENT then why are they participating in an ENT RPG in the first place?

Why do you care, what does it matter if people want to participate in an RPG but don't agree with ENT canon?

Cpl Kendall wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
But my points about TOS and TNG fans getting pissed about ENT changing their assumptions or retconning the older series are still valid.

Look there are three series after TOS that either backed up TOS or didn't contradict it. Then ENT comes along.

What did it contradict exactly that can't be explained

And if these people who voted for older weapons didn't like ENT then why are they participating in an ENT RPG in the first place?

Why do you care, what does it matter if people want to participate in an RPG but don't agree with ENT canon?

It's an RPG in the ENT era, so it's kind of important. That would be like an athlete participating in a sport who's rules he doesn't agree with. Yes, the rules can be changed here, but my point stands.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:What did it contradict exactly that can't be explained?

The canon fact that the Romulan War was fought with nuclear weapons, and that the Romulans didn't have cloaks.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
What did it contradict exactly that can't be explained

Seafort got there first so I won't repeat it.

It's an RPG in the ENT era, so it's kind of important. That would be like an athlete participating in a sport who's rules he doesn't agree with. Yes, the rules can be changed here, but my point stands.

So it really doesn't matter than, you just pointed out that we can change the rules.

Captain Seafort wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote:What did it contradict exactly that can't be explained?

The canon fact that the Romulan War was fought with nuclear weapons, and that the Romulans didn't have cloaks.

Did they specify which side was using nuclear weapons? From what I read on Memory Alpha about the Earth-Romulan war Spock categorized the weaponry generally used in the Earth-Romulan War as atomic in nature. It's possible that Spock was refering to Romulan weapons.

As for the Cloak, okay, I'll give you that one.

So it really doesn't matter than, you just pointed out that we can change the rules.

Just because we can change the rules doesn't mean we should change the rules.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:Did they specify which side was using nuclear weapons? From what I read on Memory Alpha about the Earth-Romulan war Spock categorized the weaponry generally used in the Earth-Romulan War as atomic in nature. It's possible that Spock was refering to Romulan weapons.

Balance of Terror transcript wrote:SPOCK [OC]: As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought,

[Engineering]

SPOCK [OC]: By our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels

No mention of sides, implying that both were using the same general technology.

Just because we can change the rules doesn't mean we should change the rules.

We're not changing the rules - we're using canon Romulan War era technology.

Captain Seafort wrote:
No mention of sides, implying that both were using the same general technology.

We're not changing the rules - we're using canon Romulan War era technology.

An implication doesn't make it canon.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
Just because we can change the rules doesn't mean we should change the rules.

This from the guy that made up and inserted his pet species into the other RPG? Seems like your throwing stones from a glass house.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
An implication doesn't make it canon.

WTF are you talking about? The quote is clear, primitive atomic wepaons.

Cpl Kendall wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
Just because we can change the rules doesn't mean we should change the rules.

This from the guy that made up and inserted his pet species into the other RPG? Seems like your throwing stones from a glass house.

First of all, it's not "his" and it's not my "pet" species. And if I was throwing stones for a glass house, I'd open the window first.

WTF are you talking about? The quote is clear, primitive atomic wepaons.

That at least one side of the war used primitive atomic weapons. It Implies that both sides used them, but an implication doesn't make it canon.

ChakatBlackstar wrote: Just because we can change the rules doesn't mean we should change the rules.

Says the one who supports what Enterprise did to Trek.

TOS Dialogue trumps whatever rating-garnering bull TPTB decide to pull later. If they say "shortly after the 3rd world war" or "during the Eugenics War", then there was somewhere in the history a WWIII or an Eugenics War, we can argue about the exact years till the cows come home, or a later series can establish the time frame, but regardless, they are still separate wars.

If Mr. Spock says "with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels"--than it was in primitive space vessels with primitive atomic weapons, not upside down Akira-Class Vessels with everything retro-named.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:
First of all, it's not "his" and it's not my "pet" species. And if I was throwing stones for a glass house, I'd open the window first.

Regardless of whether you are a he, she or somewhere in between you did insert a non-canon species into the other RPG. So it was convienant to change things then when it suited you, now it doesn't and you oppose it.

That at least one side of the war used primitive atomic weapons. It Implies that both sides used them, but an implication doesn't make it canon.

You twist that around any further it's going to spin dry.