Would you do a Ransom?

[Mikey]

that participated in first degree murder on a regular basis

You are assuming something - sapience on the part of the aliens - which in your own post you said was an unknown factor.

And yeah, I think it is analogous to Jews and concentration camps.

I know it's not your intention, but I find this incredibly offensive. First, there were far more victims of the Holocaust than Jews. Second, you're ignoring the question of intent; the Nazi goal was genocide of a number of different groups, while Ransom's goal was never the extermination of the aliens. Did he do something morally reprehensible? Absolutely, but it was a symptom of his pursuit of a simple, natural aim - that of getting his crew home. The Holocaust was not a means to any end other than itself. There is no way it is analogous.

[KuvahMagh]

that participated in first degree murder on a regular basis

You are assuming something - sapience on the part of the aliens - which in your own post you said was an unknown factor.

And yeah, I think it is analogous to Jews and concentration camps.

I know it's not your intention, but I find this incredibly offensive. First, there were far more victims of the Holocaust than Jews. Second, you're ignoring the question of intent; the Nazi goal was genocide of a number of different groups, while Ransom's goal was never the extermination of the aliens. Did he do something morally reprehensible? Absolutely, but it was a symptom of his pursuit of a simple, natural aim - that of getting his crew home. The Holocaust was not a means to any end other than itself. There is no way it is analogous.

I agree, the question of just how intelligent these aliens are is unanswerable from what we saw. If the question were "Was what Ransom did morally wrong?" then I may have a harder time answering the original post but the question was if put in the same position with a ship equipped for short range, short duration science missions which has been dragged across the Galaxy, severely damaged and half my crew dead would I use these things for fuel. My answer is still a resounding Hell Yes.

Keep in mind that the Equinox was a Science ship, likely with minimal armament and a small crew. It was also not designed to go very fast. We have no information regarding how useful the ship would be in terms of resources were they to settle in the DQ.

[Teaos]

From what we saw they were on the level of a dolpin, we cant know for sure if they are smarter but from what we see they sit about there.

So its not murder.

Its not wrong.

Janeway had a fucked up moral compass so lets not base people normal reactions on her's. You want a normal reaction look at the poll, 9 to 4 in favor of killing them.

[Mark]

Let's put it this way. If I was the Captain, and my crew had obviously no chance to get home unless I could come up with some kind of miracle, if they were sapient, intellegent, whatever...........I still most likely would. At that point it becomes a matter of survival, for those who put their faith in me and trust me. I may be the next Captain Tracey, but my crew would get home to they're families. And as the Captain, all of the responsability would be mine.

Would I massacre humanoid men, woman, and children? No. If they were even slightly ambigious like these aliens, yes.

[katefan]

that participated in first degree murder on a regular basis

You are assuming something - sapience on the part of the aliens - which in your own post you said was an unknown factor.

This is true, but it is a factor that was not adequately pursued by Ransom. To him, ignorance was indeed bliss. But in Janeway's case we had honest communication, a deal was struck and adhered to. All of this ample evidence of intelligence.

And yeah, I think it is analogous to Jews and concentration camps.

I know it's not your intention, but I find this incredibly offensive.

For that I apologize.

First, there were far more victims of the Holocaust than Jews. Second, you're ignoring the question of intent; the Nazi goal was genocide of a number of different groups, while Ransom's goal was never the extermination of the aliens. Did he do something morally reprehensible? Absolutely, but it was a symptom of his pursuit of a simple, natural aim - that of getting his crew home. The Holocaust was not a means to any end other than itself. There is no way it is analogous.

Then we are going to have to agree to disagree on that score. I apologize for not being more specific in regards to the victims of concentration camps (although in the other thread I did mention I could have been Romany, another of the victims of Nazi oppression), but I do see a parallel between Nazi victims tossed into ovens and aliens burnt in the anti-matter fires of a starship.

An analogy does not have to be perfect, and I think there is enough of one between the two when it comes to a story where an entire race is considered by someone to be less than human and thus expendable.

[KuvahMagh]

Again I've said it before, the Universal Translator can do many great things, perhaps it can also translate a cats meow into what we can understand, does that then mean the cat is on the same level intelligence wise as a Human. The same thing applies to these aliens.

Also, in regards to the Holocaust, that was the systematic targeting if a group for the purposes of killing ALL of them. Ransom was not doing this, he played a tune and they came (this by your logic proves they have more in common with dogs than they do Humans in regard to intelligence) he then used them for fuel. there was no indication that his actions would come anywhere near wiping out their population.

On another note, I'm curious, have you ever stood in the gas chambers, or seen the ovens that they built themselves because they thought they would be allowed to make bread? Have you seen the memorials first hand?

[katefan]

Again I've said it before, the Universal Translator can do many great things, perhaps it can also translate a cats meow into what we can understand, does that then mean the cat is on the same level intelligence wise as a Human. The same thing applies to these aliens.

And again I have pointed out that these aliens cut a deal with Janeway and stuck to it.

As to the translator's abilities, since I never saw Data use it on Spot nor have I ever seen it employed on anything short of an alien with rudimentary intelligence I would say that no, it does not work on animals. Unless you can point out at some point during any of the series that it was.

Also, in regards to the Holocaust, that was the systematic targeting if a group for the purposes of killing ALL of them. Ransom was not doing this, he played a tune and they came (this by your logic proves they have more in common with dogs than they do Humans in regard to intelligence) he then used them for fuel. there was no indication that his actions would come anywhere near wiping out their population.

As I said before, it was an allegory. Allegories do not have to be perfect. I pointed out the similarities between the two horrific acts, real and fictional.

On another note, I'm curious, have you ever stood in the gas chambers, or seen the ovens that they built themselves because they thought they would be allowed to make bread? Have you seen the memorials first hand?

Nope. And I fail to see what the point of your question is. Are you suggesting that I am somehow being insensitive because I am suggesting a Star Trek episode might be drawing a parellel between real world horror and horror perpetrated in it's fictional universe? Why not? The episode Remember spoke about genocide, for example. Were the writers being insensitive? What about the Nazi-like aliens in Counterpoint that hunt down telepaths? There are certainly instances where Nazis and Nazi-like behavior are exhibited in Star Trek.

EDIT: And I think I know where some of the resentment from people is coming from. I made a comparison between Ransom and Nazis, and people who would have done what Ransom had done now feel like they are being compared to Nazis.

You do not have to try and wipe out an entire race to exhibit Nazi-like behavior. Treat an intelligent race as being less "worthy" as your own, especially if it is convenient? Kill off the other race and justify it somehow? Ignore any and all evidence said race is worthy of life? Sounds like Nazi-like behavior to me.

If you guys don't like living up to the fact that you really don't mind being thought of as being capable of multiple counts of murder, then don't admit that you would willingly kill, and kill, and kill members of another race just to get home. Me, my conscience is clear.

SECOND EDIT: And here is another point that came to me last night. Say these aliens were just as smart as dolphins, little better than animals. Then where is the horror? Why should Janeway get so bent out of shape? They are just animals, after all. But if you watch how the episodes are delivered, how Janeway responds to Ransom's actions, it is as if he has been murdering intelligent beings!

[Mikey]

So you're saying that the analogy you drew was actually between the manner of execution, and not the nature of the entire purpose fo the action? I guess I could agree with that, but IIRC the aliens were already dead when used as fuel by Ransom; camp victims were often incinerated alive. Be that as it may, it's a stronger analogy but hardly germane to the discussion.

As to the point in your first edit: I can only speak for myself of course, but I harbnor no resentment for what you have said; I merely expressed that there is a difference between purposeful genocide and happening to do something bad as a means toward a completely separate end.

As to your second edit: #1 - Janeway is not a valid moral compass. #2 - Nobody (excepting maybe Teaos) has said that what Ransom did isn't bad. The whole point of the issue was that we know it was bad; is it bad enough, however, to prevent it from doing the same thing in extremis, as Ransom was. We can debate all we like, and you can very truthfully state that you would stick to your principles, but there is honestly no way to know until actually in those shoes.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'm going back a bit, I know, but I saw something that no one adressed.

This is the last thing I am going to say on this subject. Say Ransom got his crew home. What do they come home to? Their careers are ruined. Who would want to serve with any crewmember that participated in first degree murder on a regular basis? Janeway and her crew's reaction to Ransom's actions implies that would be the reaction. We saw a similar attitude from Picard regarding the crystilline entity and his crew's reaction to the Bandi's abuse of the giant alien in Encounter At Farpoint. Intelligent life comes in all forms and from what we saw in TNG it was to be defended at all costs from abuse or exploitation (see Tin Man, for example).

So not only do Ransom and his crew face numerous charges, they face the knowledge that they will be pariahs, both professionally and personally. Is that the sort of life they want to come home to? For a son to be unable to look into his mother's eye, knowing what he did to return home?

Ransom had no idea they were inteligence. From what he saw they demonstrated the inteligence of a dog, they didn't try communicating with him.
And if he got home then that's what his logs would have indicated: that he used members of a race of rough intelectual parity with dogs. There'd be no charges levelled against him at all, because Starfleet would never know they were sapient.

[Reliant121]

Although i voted for the non-killing because i have an overly pious moral compass thats probably all too "goody two shoes" for my own good, admitted, I have to agree that there was nowhere near enough to base them as sentient. Does a sentient creature rabidly attack without asking the enemy to surrender? does a sentient creature not try to initiate contact to stop their torture? does a sentient creature fanatically assault a ship continuously even after their revenge is probably long exacted? i think not.


{I mean sentient as equal to humans or there at in this case}

they displayed all the qualities of a belligerent, wild and rabid creature thats avenging its kinds death.

[stitch626]

You said they can speak and are thus intelligent, I said that doesnt prove anything since they said "give us equinox" not really stretching anyones language skills there...

So Teaos, how do you feel about the Horta? All it could do is talk through Spock. And even monkeys can be trained to write small English sentences.
And yet Kirk was not willing to simply eliminate it.

[Mark]

Although i voted for the non-killing because i have an overly pious moral compass thats probably all too "goody two shoes" for my own good, admitted, I have to agree that there was nowhere near enough to base them as sentient. Does a sentient creature rabidly attack without asking the enemy to surrender? does a sentient creature not try to initiate contact to stop their torture? does a sentient creature fanatically assault a ship continuously even after their revenge is probably long exacted? i think not.


{I mean sentient as equal to humans or there at in this case}

they displayed all the qualities of a belligerent, wild and rabid creature thats avenging its kinds death.

Not for nothing, but your also description also fits Klingons.

Sorry..........couldn't resist.

[Reliant121]

Quite true, thats why i hate them.

[Sionnach Glic]

The Klingons of TNG+ are just techno-barbarians. To even liken them to Vikings is insulting to the latter.

[Captain Seafort]

To even liken them to Vikings is insulting to the latter.

Good point - the Vikings had far more sophisticated tactics. However, at least the worst Klingon stupidities are limited to their ground forces - their starfleet seems at least on par with the other major powers.