In defense of the A_hole directive

[sunnyside]

(Ok so this could go in general chat, but there are maybe a dozen active threads there and Kirk is getting lonely in here).

Anyway so some real world observations I was reminded of in other threads that might be a motivator for the prime directive (besides being a boon for the writers).

If you get involved in something militarily the side you oppose will stay pissed forever, but the side you help will either forget or revise it away after about 100 years.

You see that in America where many don't realize how much the French helped out in the revolution. And I"m seeing it on this board and others where there is a growing feeling that Britain and the Soviet Union didn't need the stupid USAs help in WWII. And that hasn't even been 100 years ago yet. By the time 100 years has passed US intervention in WWII will probably be considered both unessesary but will probably be blamed for the later troubles in the Balkain and possibly the Troubles in Ireland.

By the British and the Irish....

I think this applies to pretty much every conflict ever where some other nation got involved.

Same with other forms of aid. They may appreciate it now. But people and nations are just as likely to revile you for what you could have given instead of what you did. Even in Trek cannon you have the humans pissing and moaning because the Vulcans only helped them get to warp 5 instead of just giving them their best engines. But you see it in the real world too from Africa to the guy on the street who has a full belly despite not working and yet is upset at the government.

IN any case with aid or military help the country you aid certainly won't feel they owe you anything 100 years later.

So how does this boil down in Trek.

Well if you've got a pre warp culture you can only do yourself harm. They aren't going to feel any debt by the time they'd really get up to speed warp wise. However they could somehow or other wind up pissed at you. For example if you just save them from some disease or other but don't give them all the other goodies they could dislike you for all the deaths you "caused" until they developed them. And if you give a bunch of goodies to one world if you don't give them to another they may be pissed.

And at any rate if you just leave them to die you'll have another planet you can colonize later.

So really you can only lose out here.

Now a warp capable society is different. You can't necessarily just ignore them because they could actually do something to you if they felt like it. And they might end up allying with someone else. And they may have good stuff for trade.

However getting involved at all in internal stuff. Well I shouldn't even have to point out from the real world how that can turn out to be a pain. And by universally refusing to get involved you give yourself and easy out when you really don't want to be involved.

[Mikey]

OK. You make some excellent points. I can't help but wonder, though - that isolationism was the prevalent feeling in the US in 1939, and was only broken when the US was physically attacked. What if that had ocntinued for the duration of WWII? What if even the UK and Belgium kept up that policy when the "Ship of the Damned" sailed? (BTW, the SS St. Louis was denied sanctuary by Cuba, the US, and Canada - the UK allowed it to unship some refugees, but not to put in - finally she berhted at Antwerp, where refugees either remained in Blegium or were sent to France or the Netherlands.)

[sunnyside]

The prime directive doesn't advocate isolationism. Obviously the Federation is very expansionist and will attempt to set up relations with any warp capable culture it finds. It also doesn't hold back from others wars, such as with the Romulan/Klingon war.

It says to avoid anything with pre-warp cultures, and with warp capable cultures avoid "internal" or local issues. It's a little fuzzy how they define "local" , but "isn't likely to spill over and be a problem for the Federation" may be a good working definition. (For example I seem to recal some aliens smuggling drugs to some other aliens. Not the Federations problem so we just pretended we didn't see anything amd walked away).

[Mikey]

The problem isn't the philosophy itself; it's with the rather arbitrary and haphazard application.

[sunnyside]

Well, captains will be captains. In all cases Starfleet has plausable deniability. Also I'm under the impression Kirk got quite a few slaps on the wrist at least from Starfleet. And Picard didn't get any promotions either despite all the stuff he did.

[mlsnoopy]

And Picard didn't get any promotions either despite all the stuff he did

Wasn't he offerd a promotion but turned it down. And in Generations Kirk advised him that being an admiral isn't a good idea.

[sunnyside]

A lot of that stuff might be off screen. Though Picard does take some flak in "The Drumhead."

Also he may have some spin in his reports to starfleet.

"We have been studying the geology of a number of planets. Their remarkable structure causing them to tear themselves apart. We have stabalized the crust of one of them to allow for future study."

PS. There may have been a pre-warp culture there. We really didn't have time to investigate them however.

Regardless the directive itself seems clear enough and I think there are solid reasons behind it.

[Captain Seafort]

There's also the question of which Prime Directive is being considered.

The TOS-PD simply forbade interference in planetary culture and technology, on the grounds that benevolently giving a planet nuclear power to stave off an energy crisis was likely to result in them developing weapons and wiping themselves out. It had no problem whatsoever with humanitarian intervention provided the locals remained in ignorance of said intervention.

The TNG-PD is where the thing starts resembling the genocide convention in reverse.

[Sionnach Glic]

The TNG PD, in theory, is a good thing. In practice, however, it is far too inflexible.
Preventing interference with a non-warp race is, obviously, a good idea. You can screw stuff up royally if you're not careful (was there one TNG episode where people were being worshipped as gods, or something?). The problem is that it prevents interference under any circumstances, even when the species is going to become extinct due to, say, an asteroid hitting them. According to the PD, you should just sit back and let billions of people die, simply because they're not as advanced as you. But if you were to, say, blow the asteroid up, or tractor it out of the way, then the locals won't even realise that you were there, and you'd have had no effect at all on their natural progression. Admitedly, when it gets to things like the race dying of diesease or being in the midst of a nuclear war, then things get a bit messy. However, in all of the situations we've seen in TNG, the people in question could have been saved with little to no adverse affects. Yet people still sit by and let billions die when they have the power to save them, simply because that's what they're ordered to do. I belive the Nuremberg Trials had quite a bit to say on that particular topic.

[kostmayer]

And Picard didn't get any promotions either despite all the stuff he did

Wasn't he offerd a promotion but turned it down. And in Generations Kirk advised him that being an admiral isn't a good idea.

He was only offered a promotion because Admiral Quinn wanted him at Starfleet to help combat the alien threat. There's no indication he was ever offered another.

[Thorin]

And Picard didn't get any promotions either despite all the stuff he did

Wasn't he offerd a promotion but turned it down. And in Generations Kirk advised him that being an admiral isn't a good idea.

He was only offered a promotion because Admiral Quinn wanted him at Starfleet to help combat the alien threat. There's no indication he was ever offered another.

So? He was still offered it, and I find it highly unlikely that the best captain in Starfleet (commanding two flagships 'n' all), as well as being one of the longest serving ones, wouldn't have been offered one several times.

[sunnyside]

So? He was still offered it, and I find it highly unlikely that the best captain in Starfleet (commanding two flagships 'n' all), as well as being one of the longest serving ones, wouldn't have been offered one several times.

Again it could be partly due to prime directive breeches. When he was on the stand he got attacked for having I believe nine documented breaches.

Also I don't recall that the Nuremberg Trials had stuff on not going out of your way to save people. I thought they were all for actively doing things. (Such as if you were ordered to tractor a metor so that it would hit them).

Still though. From Starfleets POV saving a planet doesn't get them any benifit, and does use up some resources. And of course it could come around and bite them in the @$$. As they say no good deed goes unpunished and I'm guessing the Federation has had to deal with this a number of times. At the least saving a civilization just means one less planet they could colonize and one more civilization that could be a thorn in their side.

[Mikey]

There's a bit of Starfleet hypocrisy going on there - one the one hand, they're the peaceful, war-as-a-last-resort-only, let's-all-talk-it-out yippies; on the other hand, they don't want to "waste" a little of a starship's time and deuterium to save an entire sapient species (even when it can be done without interference?)

Sounds like a rehash of the "arbitrary and haphazard" thing I mentioned, as well as just plain wrong.

[Thorin]

Again it could be partly due to prime directive breeches. When he was on the stand he got attacked for having I believe nine documented breaches.

He got attacked for it yes, but we can be reasonably certain by the manner of the woman's response that no action was expected to be taken. Besides that, Janeway had far greater breaches, as did Kirk. He is, by canon, the best captain in SF - whether that actually delayed or helped any promotion to admiral is debatable, but I'd lean towards it helping, because he was offered it at least once (which wasn't just one man's [Quinn's] view - he must have cleared it elsewhere) and it seems he would have been offered it at other times - his decision to turn it down, regardless of what Kirk said - seemed pretty universal in that he had no interest in politics and his attitude with that never seemed to change. That woman's quip that she had brought down greater men than Picard (a rather grudging/hateful respect) seemed to indicate that he was also pretty high in the pecking order, regardless of official rank.

[Mikey]

That woman's quip that she had brought down greater men than Picard (a rather grudging/hateful respect) seemed to indicate that he was also pretty high in the pecking order, regardless of official rank.

As did the familiarity he displayed with alarge number of the admirals.