Armies of Lord of the Rings

[Deepcrush]

There are a hell of a lot of them so we'll start with the two we were just talking about, Gondor and Rohan. The two main powers of men out of the Movies and more then likely the simplest to start with.

I'll start off for Gondor. A point I noted in the other thread and something that has bothered me for a long time has been the locations of Gondor's armies. Gandalf was clearly shocked to see the White City so poorly defended. The coastal cities were tied up fighting the people of Umbar and Harad so its understandable they didn't send help but... What about all the lands in the western half of Gondor that wasn't tied up fighting anyone. Aragorn just a few years later gathered together and army that was equal in numbers to that of evil armies attacking Minas Tirith... The prime difference between the earlier evil army and later good army is that Aragorn, by this time King Elessar, had an army of professional troops. They were quality troops on top of their quantity. Plate/Mail armor, steel swords and bows that would make any King of the Medieval ages blush to have and piss their pants to stand against.

So where the hell were these guys when Gondor was under invasion from Sauron!?

[Mikey]

I don't have a full explanation, but I think I can come up with a few partial reasons:

#1 - Gondor, from the time of the events of the stories until the death of Denethor the Last, was for all intents and purposes leaderless. Having fighting men with zero presence to marshal them is equivalent to having no fighting men.

#2 - Many of the men who later came into the forces defending Minas Tirith were not members of a standing army. The knighthood was few and far between - even the knights who entered with the Prince of Dol Amroth were remarked in the book as being splendid, but few in number. The huge majority of those troops were raised from the hillmen, farmers, etc. That is, considering point #1 above, men who would have had zero impetus to form their militias until they were marshalled by a true leader (i.e., after the death of Denethor.)

[Deepcrush]

Good points.

Even above militia (and below Knights), Gondor must have maintained a rather large number of troops in its western half. Otherwise there's not a chance in hell of them being pulled together as quickly as they later were. Though you'd think that maybe Boromir would have moved some more troops over. Of course thats only a guess since he may very well have done so, just so his father could waste them in useless battles or send them away where they weren't needed.

[Sionnach Glic]

Keep in mind that Gondor didn't just have attacks from the east to worry about. There were a lot of possible avenues of attack that needed to be covered - in many cases with a not inconsiderable number of troops to be held effectively.

For one, the coastal cities of Gondor would have been under constant threat from Umbar's naval supremecy. Pelargir was under continual siege from Umbar's corsairs until the Army of the Dead drove them off. And that was (IIRC) one of the largest and most prosperous cities, which would logically have been one of the more heavily defended ones. It's quite likely that other coastal cities, presuming they'd not already been attacked and sacked, would have been unwilling to send troops all the way to Minas Tirith to fight (what is to them) a far less pressing threat - particularly when one considers that it was highly unlikely that any troops sent would ever have returned alive. Looking at a map of Gondor, it can be seen that a fairly large amount of the country isn't that far from the coast. Thus the leaders of the western provinces could very well have decided to hoard troops in the event of Umbar attempting a naval invasion.

Secondly, Gondor needed to defend itself from attacks coming from the south. This would mean deploying a fairly large garrison in Harondor to defeat attempted invasions from the Harradrim and Umbar. I daresay it would take a not inconsiderable number of troops to discourage attacks from a nation with access to Mumakil. Though considering that the Harradrim did indeed turn up at the Pelennor Fields, these forces were most likely destroyed shortly before the final assault.

Thirdly, the river crossings at Cair Andros and Osgiliath also had to be defended to prevent attacks from the north. Given that these would naturally be key positions in the war against Mordor, Gondor probably expended the majority of its available manpower in trying to hold these cities. While troops at Osgiliath could have retreated to Minas Tirith easily enough, the forces at Cair Andros would have had no nearby cities to retreat to. By the time Mordor's forces finally managed to cross the Anduin, Gondor had most likely been sapped of nearly all of its manpower by trying to prevent them doing so.

Finally, while Isengard was still a threat, the passes through the White Mountains would have required yet more troops to garrison against possible attacks.

As you can see, Gondor is in a pretty shit position defensive wise. It's not surprising that they had relatively few troops available to be deployed to Minas Tirith. Those few that were available would most likely have been thrown into the meatgrinder at Osgiliath in a futile attempt to prevent Mordor's forces from gaining access to the western regions of Gondor.

And I can kind of understand their thinking. Even with a miniscule garrison, Minas Tirith should have been capable of holding out for weeks. A large garrison is completely unnecessary to hold the city.

Also, we need to take into account the comparative worth of garrisoning either Minas Tirith or Osgiliath. If you deploy a large army at Minas Tirith, what do you get? Well, you make the city even harder to take. But it does nothing to stop the enemy moving west to conquer the western regions of the country. The Orcs would simply have laid siege to the city and prevented the garrison from sallying forth, intending to break them by starvation. But even if they were unable to do so, they'd still have reduced all of Gondor to ruins, leaving them completely incapable of ever being a threat again and ready for future invasions.
If you deploy a large army at Osgiliath, however, then you deny the enemy the ability to move west. This leaves the rest of your nation protected from invasion, allowing them to farm, produce weapons, recruit new troops, etc.

All in all, witholding large numbers of troops and filling Minas Tirith to the brim with troops would have done little but ensure Gondor's defeat. Even if the White City wasn't taken, the nation itself would never recover from the devastation that Mordor would have dealt to the western provinces. Indeed, leaving so few troops to defend Minas Tirith probably saved the country.

[Deepcrush]

Rochey, I can go along with just about everything you said but this...

Secondly, Gondor needed to defend itself from attacks coming from the south. This would mean deploying a fairly large garrison in Harondor to defeat attempted invasions from the Harradrim and Umbar. I daresay it would take a not inconsiderable number of troops to discourage attacks from a nation with access to Mumakil. Though considering that the Harradrim did indeed turn up at the Pelennor Fields, these forces were most likely destroyed shortly before the final assault.

I doubt these were destroyed or otherwise even seriously harmed before the battle at Minas Tirith. Umbar bypassed as much as they could to travel up river. Harad most likely did the same on land. Moving their forces through with enough strength that none of the cities along the way could match them alone. So they prep'd for sieges that never came.

[Sionnach Glic]

An fair possibility.

[Reliant121]

I always wondered how effective the Rohan army would actually be, purely because it seems mostly to suffice on the Rohirrim and a few dodgy archers.

[Mikey]

I always wondered how effective the Rohan army would actually be, purely because it seems mostly to suffice on the Rohirrim and a few dodgy archers.

I thought the term Rohirrim meant the inhabitants of Rohan, not a particular type of warrior.

Be that as it may, it would be as effective as any other - remember, Rohan's marshals have had generations of experience in applying the tenets of mounted warfare, and of suiting any battlefield to their strengths. Attila's army had no forces more mixed than some guys having faster horses than the others, but they went so far as to make Rome pay them tribute and give them a huge tract of Roman land to make into their winter home. The Russian and Ukrainian cossacks were so close to their horses that they preserved meat by riding with it under their saddle blankets - yet they were courted by (and served under) both the Russians and the Third Reich in WWII.

And, agreed with Rochey - after defending the coastlands from Umbar, the southern reaches from Harad, Osgiliath, and the approaches from Isengard, there's only a limited number of men left to garrison Minas Tirith. Add to that the fact that even some of those men were regularly taken on recon/skirmishing expeditions by Faramir, and you're left with what we saw.

[Reliant121]

I'd always thought of Rohirrim as cavalry....I may well be wrong, i'm not that well learned in the lore of LOTR.

[Mikey]

I'd always thought of Rohirrim as cavalry....I may well be wrong, i'm not that well learned in the lore of LOTR.

IIRC, "Rohirrim" was just an archaic term for the people who eventually migrated south and settled in the land that is now Rohan.

[Reliant121]

I stand corrected

[Mikey]

I stand corrected

IIRC

That's a big "if."

[Deepcrush]

The Rohirrim was the title of the Army of Rohan, if you fought for the Kingdom then you were "Of the Rohirrim".

IIRC, "Rohirrim" was just an archaic term for the people who eventually migrated south and settled in the land that is now Rohan.

You're thinking Rhovanion.

[Mikey]

The Rohirrim was the title of the Army of Rohan, if you fought for the Kingdom then you were "Of the Rohirrim".

IIRC, "Rohirrim" was just an archaic term for the people who eventually migrated south and settled in the land that is now Rohan.

You're thinking Rhovanion.

Like I said - big "if." Thanks.

[Deepcrush]

I always wondered how effective the Rohan army would actually be, purely because it seems mostly to suffice on the Rohirrim and a few dodgy archers.

Well for effect you also have to look at where they were and who they came from. The Kingdom of Rohan located in a vast plain where there are few areas to which Calvary can't move. In fact I'm not sure if I've ever read anything about anywhere in Rohan to which cav can't go, but I'm just leaving that part open. Also, if we look to where they came from being the former Kingdom of Rhovanion. What they had when they arrived was a little money, a lot of soldiers and horses with a few good hopes. Rohan, even before it was Rohan, was in truth pretty poor money wise. While its true that they produced a lot of food, so did Gondor and everyone else around them. Or at least enough that they didn't need to buy from Rohan.

Rohan had one advantage though, they could feed their population and live stock so well that even the peasants owned horses. Look at Gondor where to own a horse you had to be either Rich or a Knight of Gondor. Arnor (and the kingdoms that followed in its place) was mostly woodlands, so not many horses in use there either.

Over time, Rohan became the mobile warfare experts of Middle Earth not just because they could but because they really didn't have a choice. Its not often you find kingdoms in which their armies are split evenly between infantry and cavalry. The effect of having several thousand mounted warriors charging an line of infantry throwing spears, axes and arrows while doing so can make a hell of a first impression.