Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Deepcrush »

Monroe wrote:Well we know that lasers in Sci-fis aren't always actual lasers :wink: Its a fair question.
You mean minus here where they are stated as such right???
And I honestly don't know the speed and distances of weapons in B5. So its a fair question, not necessarily a point to debate.
A, you don't seem to know much of anything about B5 other then the name of the show.
B, it is a point to debate if you're basing your targeting theory on those same weapons and ranges to which you know nothing of.
C, at what speed do you think light moves at???
You know, I don't think Blackstar made you look like a complete moron on any occation. I'll give you that much credit.
Yet another thing you two have in common. Cute and good for you, I'm sure you'll be happy together. Care to make a point or are you just talking for the sake of wasting time on yet another thread to which you know nothing about?
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Monroe »

Deepcrush wrote: A, you don't seem to know much of anything about B5 other then the name of the show.
B, it is a point to debate if you're basing your targeting theory on those same weapons and ranges to which you know nothing of.
C, at what speed do you think light moves at???
A- Well I'm not a super B5 fan. I've seen all but the last season. None of the extra movies or miniseries and have not read any of the books.
B- Well if the weapons move slower than the speed of light than the targeting solution is useful. In the TV show the ships do appear on top of each other. So assuming that they aren't firing from massive distances at the speed of light then the targeting solution works. Because of they either have to get into range or their weapons move slower than the solution would actually do some good.
C- Well c :P

Now I'm not going to ask a mod to close this, that's you game plan, but hey it boils down to this:

I don't live and breathe B5 but..
-On screen the ships look like they're all in visual range before they fire
-Often ships fire pulse weapons and missiles that move considerably slower than the speed of light
-My targeting solution works at the speed of light from great distances. Considering that it appears that many of the weapons move slower and many of the weapons require 'point blank' to fire my targeting solution would provide a lot of time that, when passed along to the rest of the fleet would improve chances of surviving a ship battle.
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Lighthawk »

I don't want to get inbetween you and deep's "debate" here, but I do want to discuss one thing, simplely because I feel a previous point of mine is being ignored.

What makes you think your targeting solution is any sort of solution. As I stated before, you're basically pulling this out of your ass. You're introducing a new element into the B5 universe that we've never seen used before. And you have yet to deliver any sort of arguement that would allow the EF to gain this new targeting system that ALSO does not allow the Mimbari to just defeat it by the equally valid responce of them pulling some sort of stealth technobabble countermeasure out of their ass.

Again, if you're going to throw new stuff into the game for the EF's side, then I will do the same for the Mimbari until you can give me a reason why you should be able to and I should not.
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Deepcrush »

A- Well I'm not a super B5 fan. I've seen all but the last season. None of the extra movies or miniseries and have not read any of the books.
Which is a point to way you should listen to people who know a topic better then you do.
B- Well if the weapons move slower than the speed of light than the targeting solution is useful. In the TV show the ships do appear on top of each other. So assuming that they aren't firing from massive distances at the speed of light then the targeting solution works. Because of they either have to get into range or their weapons move slower than the solution would actually do some good.
The problem is that while some of the battles are close up and personal. Most aren't. Most battles are fought at long range. Enough so that weapons fire moving at the SoL miss. Which means ranges of over one light second.
C- Well c :P
Just checking, you seemed unclear before. So just factor this with the above.
Now I'm not going to ask a mod to close this, that's you game plan, but hey it boils down to this:
A, so far you're the only one who's ever gone begging the mod's for anything. So don't try blaming anyone else for your being a pussy.
B, its not your thread so its up to SSM if it closes or not.
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by SuperSaiyaMan12 »

I actually want to keep the thread open. The debate is going on pretty well.
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Deepcrush »

SuperSaiyaMan12 wrote:I actually want to keep the thread open. The debate is going on pretty well.
Well, that settles it then.
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Monroe »

Lighthawk wrote:I don't want to get inbetween you and deep's "debate" here, but I do want to discuss one thing, simplely because I feel a previous point of mine is being ignored.

What makes you think your targeting solution is any sort of solution. As I stated before, you're basically pulling this out of your ass. You're introducing a new element into the B5 universe that we've never seen used before. And you have yet to deliver any sort of arguement that would allow the EF to gain this new targeting system that ALSO does not allow the Mimbari to just defeat it by the equally valid responce of them pulling some sort of stealth technobabble countermeasure out of their ass.

Again, if you're going to throw new stuff into the game for the EF's side, then I will do the same for the Mimbari until you can give me a reason why you should be able to and I should not.
Well its impossible given what they have. And drone technology would probably be too expensive to try as you guys pointed out. We know computers in the future are more potent than our computers. We know they have working AI for example. We know with our computers we can look at one star and determine this. We know as computers advance they can handle more and more operations. So computers should be able to handle looking at the star field to determine a dip in light and where it comes from and act to that.

Now what the Minbari do to counter this I don't know. It would be interesting to play out this scenerio to see what each side could come up with. Maybe divide into teams and think of something that counters the other. But since Minbari can't turn their ships invisible to visible light I don't see how they could counter this. Doesn't mean they can't. Just with their current technology I don't know a way.

But like a lot of things in war one side develops something that kicks ass, the other side develops a counter, and then the original side has to improve.

Deep, you really should argue like Lighthawk or some of the others. I have no problem admiting I'm wrong when I am wrong but I don't like to have a civil debate when someone who doesn't want one in turn.
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Deepcrush »

Monroe wrote:Deep, you really should argue like Lighthawk or some of the others. I have no problem admiting I'm wrong when I am wrong but I don't like to have a civil debate when someone who doesn't want one in turn.
:laughroll:

Right, because why??? You wanted to know why you're wrong, I showed you, you ignored it. You act like a cheap whore, so thats how I'll treat you. If you don't like it, too bad. We're on page six of EVERYONE, not just me, telling you how full of shit you are. Even with all of this and your "admitting" to being wrong you're still trying to dodge the points.

As to having a civil debate with you. Never gonna happen. You're trash and as far as I see it you're only here for me to beat on.
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Aaron »

B5 had working AI?
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Deepcrush »

They've had it. However I've never seen it working properly. That and it wouldn't help anyhow since the Minbari jammers trash automated systems.

Drones enter system - Minbari jammers start up - Drones shut down - Minbari destroy them. Pretty simple.

Monroe, your targeting crap, how about taking what Rochey said so many pages ago. Light based tracking is useless after one light second to which the Minbari can just stay beyond that range.

Two clean sweeps. Targeting idea trashed, drone idea trashed.
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Monroe »

Deepcrush wrote:They've had it. However I've never seen it working properly.
The plot of the show in question was that one of the AIs had a bad personality. Not that it couldn't figure systems out or that its replacement was any less capable.
Drones enter system - Minbari jammers start up - Drones shut down - Minbari destroy them. Pretty simple.
Do Minbari jammers turn off missiles? From the little wikipedia snub I found it just said hyperdrives.

And Deep yes after a few light seconds but you've yet to post at what range the conflicts happen in. They can't be too broad of range otherwise fighter straffing and dog fights wouldn't be working as we see them in the TV show. Things tend to happen within a few hundred kilometers of each other. Well within range of the targeting solution. Just like usual Deep I ask for you to post your evidence but instead you just trash talk. My evidence? Just about every show ever to be on air. Now if every show's special effects are wrong show me the dialogue that trumps that. Show me where it says that battles take place at thousands or millions of kilometers from each other. Prove it.
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Lighthawk »

Monroe wrote:[Well its impossible given what they have. And drone technology would probably be too expensive to try as you guys pointed out. We know computers in the future are more potent than our computers. We know they have working AI for example. We know with our computers we can look at one star and determine this. We know as computers advance they can handle more and more operations. So computers should be able to handle looking at the star field to determine a dip in light and where it comes from and act to that.

Now what the Minbari do to counter this I don't know. It would be interesting to play out this scenerio to see what each side could come up with. Maybe divide into teams and think of something that counters the other. But since Minbari can't turn their ships invisible to visible light I don't see how they could counter this. Doesn't mean they can't. Just with their current technology I don't know a way.

But like a lot of things in war one side develops something that kicks ass, the other side develops a counter, and then the original side has to improve.
See, this is not really what I want to do, because we're going way off any known canon. We can keep arguing back and forth " Well EF could do this" " Well then the Mimbari can do this." " Well then EF could..." Into an endless cycle of pure speculation until we reach a point so far from the show material that we might as well be talking about Warhammer for all the relevance of it.

But to be a good sport, I'll do it once. Here are my Mimbari solutions to your light based targeting system

1) Decoys. The Mimbari field collaspable frames with cloth stretched between them. As the whole thing folds down (like those snap open tents) every captial ship can carry dozens of them. They are attached to the fighters, which fly out, bring the decoys up to speed, and then deploy them. The decoys snap open, and the large sail they form blocks out light equal to that of one of their ships. The nature of space means they can just let them go once deployed, they'll sail on on their own without further assistance. I suppose thrusters could easily be added to let them control them even, the technology should be well within Mimbari ability to do so. Also, their cloth nature would make them hard to knock out, most weapons would go right through them and only leave a small hole, meaning it would take several hits before enough light started to leak through for the targeting system to discount it as a fake. Not as good as stealth, but having to guess which targets are real out of dozens of fakes per ship would make your system minimally useful at best.

2) Active counter measure: The Mimbari use their sensors and computers to calculate the angles between them and the EF ships and determine from those angles which stars will be behind them, and how much light they will be obstructing. They then use lights on the front of thier ships to compensate, however much relative dimming of the star light they would have caused is balanced out by shining their own lights at the EF ships, resulting in no dimming effect for the sensors to detect.

There you go, two viable, and completely pulled out of my ass systems that are well within the Mimbari ability to create and use. Stealth advantage is theirs again, not that they really need it. Lets remember, this whole war started when an EF ship opened fire on a Mimbari ship and killed their leader. The EF ship shot off a full salvo, scored several direct hits, and only did moderate damage, enough to cause a support beam to crush the Mimbari leader (I believe, it's been a long while), but over all the ship was still wholly intact and operational. On the flip side, Mimbari ships can destroy EF ships in single shots. Even if we take away the stealth advantage, which is huge, the EF is severally outgunned. The Mimbari also have the greater numbers, and their people are tougher physcially.

I must state again, the show was written so that earth had no chance.
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Monroe »

Lighthawk wrote: See, this is not really what I want to do, because we're going way off any known canon. We can keep arguing back and forth " Well EF could do this" " Well then the Mimbari can do this." " Well then EF could..." Into an endless cycle of pure speculation until we reach a point so far from the show material that we might as well be talking about Warhammer for all the relevance of it.
Well yeah don't get me wrong I'm not saying EF has all large hyperspace capable drone missile delivery systems or targeting solutions that work off monitoring the dimness of light from stars that they can plug into things. And yeah if that's the argument Deep wants to make that they don't, then yeah sure Deep can win that one :P I'm just trying to come up with creative ways that are realistic that the EA could come up with a solution. All in fun problem solving :)

1) Decoys. The Mimbari field collaspable frames with cloth stretched between them. As the whole thing folds down (like those snap open tents) every captial ship can carry dozens of them. They are attached to the fighters, which fly out, bring the decoys up to speed, and then deploy them. The decoys snap open, and the large sail they form blocks out light equal to that of one of their ships. The nature of space means they can just let them go once deployed, they'll sail on on their own without further assistance. I suppose thrusters could easily be added to let them control them even, the technology should be well within Mimbari ability to do so. Also, their cloth nature would make them hard to knock out, most weapons would go right through them and only leave a small hole, meaning it would take several hits before enough light started to leak through for the targeting system to discount it as a fake. Not as good as stealth, but having to guess which targets are real out of dozens of fakes per ship would make your system minimally useful at best.
That's a counter easily within their reach technologically once they've figured out how the EA does it. I guess EA's counter would be first opening shots be weapons designed to decintergrate cloth sails. But yeah good idea there.
2) Active counter measure: The Mimbari use their sensors and computers to calculate the angles between them and the EF ships and determine from those angles which stars will be behind them, and how much light they will be obstructing. They then use lights on the front of thier ships to compensate, however much relative dimming of the star light they would have caused is balanced out by shining their own lights at the EF ships, resulting in no dimming effect for the sensors to detect.
I think that would only work at extreme ranges. Ranges that I'm not convinced B5 weapons can even operate in anyway. But if they can calculate that (Not saying they can't) it would allow them to close the gap.
There you go, two viable, and completely pulled out of my ass systems that are well within the Mimbari ability to create and use. Stealth advantage is theirs again, not that they really need it. Lets remember, this whole war started when an EF ship opened fire on a Mimbari ship and killed their leader. The EF ship shot off a full salvo, scored several direct hits, and only did moderate damage, enough to cause a support beam to crush the Mimbari leader (I believe, it's been a long while), but over all the ship was still wholly intact and operational. On the flip side, Mimbari ships can destroy EF ships in single shots. Even if we take away the stealth advantage, which is huge, the EF is severally outgunned. The Mimbari also have the greater numbers, and their people are tougher physcially.
Hmm good point. Not sure about the greater numbers though.

I really like your sails idea. Spreading a gas that blocks out starlight would work even better. Though I guess with the amount of gas you'd need that's not really cost effective. May take them awhile to learn how EA is doing it but yeah it is something they can fix.

Alright, while I'm still convinced B5 warfare happens almost on top of each other and I think my targeting solution would still increase kill-loss ratio significantly I'll concede it probably won't change the outcome of the war. And I know its better than what they currently had going into the war. But I still think its possible for them to have won. I'm just thinking aloud here but I like the idea of solving a problem that 'cannot be solved'.

Well argued Lighthawk. See Deep when grown-ups have debates minds can be changed ;)
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Deepcrush »

Well argued Lighthawk. See Deep when grown-ups have debates minds can be changed :wink:
Do you really think I give a shit about how long it takes you to suck up your ego and accept that you know nothing? You already knew what you were saying was wrong. You argued for the sake of trying to be right for once in your life. I'm impressed that all this time you've talked about how many people support you, yet none came forward. How the mods support you, I've talked to three of them and none have a clue to what you're talking about. You draw evidence from other shows which have nothing to do with B5, yet you wonder why I treat you like a joke. I draw evidence from the actual show, something you've not seen and seems far beyond your understanding. You complain about fighters being within several KMs of their targets, well yes they are, however we also see them travel for several minutes before they can even engage each other. You get tired of getting your ass kicked so you start talking about closing a thread that isn't even yours. Funny thing about that is the person who the thread belongs to is enjoying it. So I'm not seeing that go anywhere. You ask for people to prove you wrong, when they do, you just start things running in a circle hoping they'll give up. You talk about being willing to admit you're wrong about something yet in the same post you continue talking about the very thing you were just shown to be wrong about. You also have this great little thing about when you're trashed about your ideas. You go back and change one or two of them just enough to get people to say "maybe" then you wait for a while before coming back and claiming all those people as supporters and a victory for yourself.

After thinking of all of that, and your asking me to treat you like an adult... umm, not a chance.
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Re: Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

Post by Monroe »

See my point Deep? I didn't even get past the first sentence before your mononic powers overwhelmed me. I think I know what the rest of your clusterfuck of a paragraph says though. I had originally said this above but as I often do I deleted it because I thought it was mean-- hey I'm a nice guy. Honestly Deep because you never can post evidence of your own I usually just respond to something you said to make you angry. If I respond with posts of evidence like I did in the Empire thread you would just ignore it. So instead I post some evidence then I just respond pushing the right buttons to set you off. Its kind of funny, like a demonic tickle-me Elmo. Speaking of which its kind of bothered me, since your girlfriend dumped you shouldn't you change your avatar picture?
How many Minbari does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
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