Les Moonves resigns

Discovery
Post Reply
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 11561
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK
Contact:

Les Moonves resigns

Post by Graham Kennedy »

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45467975

So Les Moonves, the head of CBS, has quit his job after a series of accusations of sexual harassment.

One wonders if this will have any effect on Star Trek. Moonves was a prime force in getting Discovery going - and is reported to be the one who insisted it look like the most advanced Trek ever, despite the prequel setting. He's also reportedly the guy who thought that Star Trek and Star Wars were the same thing, to the extent that he asked an assistant how much CBS had made from the last Star Wars movie and had to be told that the House of Mouse owned it, not CBS.

Time will tell if there is any fallout from the resignation where Trek is concerned, I guess.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
Atekimogus
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 1193
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:10 pm
Location: Vienna

Re: Les Moonves resigns

Post by Atekimogus »

Graham Kennedy wrote:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45467975
He's also reportedly the guy who thought that Star Trek and Star Wars were the same thing, to the extent that he asked an assistant how much CBS had made from the last Star Wars movie and had to be told that the House of Mouse owned it, not CBS.
Not saying this might not be true...but I find that somewhat hard to believe. I mean there is incompetence...but not knowing what you have in your portfolio......

On the other hand..I suppose this is possible....I knew bosses who were not really interested in anything but were convinced that everything needs their genius input.....

Graham Kennedy wrote:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45467975

So Les Moonves, the head of CBS, has quit his job after a series of accusations of sexual harassment.
What is it with the Americans and their propensity to witch hunts?
Not defending the Weinstein guy but when all is said and done.....this #metoo snowballed into something ugly and oppressive. So far, as far as I know, nobody really has been legally prosecuted...and still, lives and carriers are destroyed by this nonsense.

I mean just read this article. There are "allegations" (read...no proof) which are even denied...and still they pay TWENTY million dollars to a twitter movement.......lol. No matter if the guy is "guilty" or not...this is quite insane.
I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite store on the Citadel.
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 11561
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK
Contact:

Re: Les Moonves resigns

Post by Graham Kennedy »

Atekimogus wrote:Not saying this might not be true...but I find that somewhat hard to believe. I mean there is incompetence...but not knowing what you have in your portfolio......
I dunno. I can believe it, given many of the things I've heard about him and executives in TV and film generally.
What is it with the Americans and their propensity to witch hunts?
Not defending the Weinstein guy but when all is said and done.....this #metoo snowballed into something ugly and oppressive. So far, as far as I know, nobody really has been legally prosecuted...and still, lives and carriers are destroyed by this nonsense.

I mean just read this article. There are "allegations" (read...no proof) which are even denied...and still they pay TWENTY million dollars to a twitter movement.......lol. No matter if the guy is "guilty" or not...this is quite insane.
I dunno. If it were an allegation, sure. When a dozen different people make similar allegations, I tend to believe it.

But who can say. It's not courtroom standards of evidence but then he isn't going to jail, he's just losing his job. Doesn't America somehow pride itself on the fact that most people can be fired at any time for any reason, or no reason at all? There's no beyond all reasonable doubt requirement for deciding to fire somebody.

And to be brutal about it... women in many areas of life have had to live in a climate of fear for a very long time. I don't mind too much if the asshole guys out there are feeling the pinch for a change.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
Atekimogus
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 1193
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:10 pm
Location: Vienna

Re: Les Moonves resigns

Post by Atekimogus »

Graham Kennedy wrote: I dunno. If it were an allegetion, sure. When a dozen different people make similar allegations, I tend to believe it.
Maybe.....but too me this seems all a bit fishy. Who knows what happened 20 years ago. Not saying those allegations are wrong..not for me to decide. But this seems all a bit to convenient to me. "Oh yes....now I remember...I also have been sexually harrassed 20 odd years ago...now where's my money please?"
Graham Kennedy wrote: But who can say. It's not courtroom standards of evidence but then he isn't going to jail, he's just losing his job. Doesn't America somehow pride itself on the fact that most people can be fired at any time for any reason, or no reason at all? There's no beyond all reasonable doubt requirement for deciding to fire somebody.
Very true. Question is though..should someone loose his/her job about some allegations which might or might not be true and are not even a a minor offense?
Graham Kennedy wrote: And to be brutal about it... women in many areas of life have had to live in a climate of fear for a very long time. I don't mind too much if the asshole guys out there are feeling the pinch for a change.
Well...I was only speaking about hollywood and metoo and how it now swings in the other direction (mind you, I am of the opinion that two wrongs don't make one right). But if you want to discuss more broadly...fear of what exactly?
I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite store on the Citadel.
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 11561
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK
Contact:

Re: Les Moonves resigns

Post by Graham Kennedy »

Atekimogus wrote:
Graham Kennedy wrote: I dunno. If it were an allegetion, sure. When a dozen different people make similar allegations, I tend to believe it.
Maybe.....but too me this seems all a bit fishy. Who knows what happened 20 years ago. Not saying those allegations are wrong..not for me to decide. But this seems all a bit to convenient to me. "Oh yes....now I remember...I also have been sexually harrassed 20 odd years ago...now where's my money please?"
As I understand it very few of the women who have made such accusations since the floodgates opened have asked for or received money. I'm not aware that any of Moonves's accusers have.

As for why "all of a sudden"... well, let's not forget that women are generally ignored when they make such accusations. There were public accusations about Bill Cosby for decades, and nothing was done until a man came forward and repeated those accusations. Same with Bill O'Reiley; accusations were made for years, and his employers simply paid the women off and kept it as quiet as they could - bearing in mind that his immediate employer was doing the exact same thing - until it was no longer in their financial interest to do so when the climate shifted.

And in the case of people like Moonves, making an accusation will likely not only not lead to any action against him, but will ruin your career.

So no, I don't find it fishy that woman are coming forward now. They're coming forward now because this is the first time that coming forward is really an option.
Very true. Question is though..should someone loose his/her job about some allegations which might or might not be true and are not even a a minor offense?
Sexual harassment is definitely something worth losing one's job over, IMO. Should they lose it over unproven allegations? Like I said, if it was just one or two, then no. But when a dozen people come forward with the same accusation? Yeah, that's something you should lose your job over.
Well...I was only speaking about hollywood and metoo and how it now swings in the other direction (mind you, I am of the opinion that two wrongs don't make one right). But if you want to discuss more broadly...fear of what exactly?
Of their misdeeds coming to light. Of women no longer being scared to report it. Of employers no longer dismissing such reports as "women being hysterical" or "just guys being guys, no big deal". Of a climate in which mistreating women isn't a perk of a job that gives you power over them.

For a long time we've lived in a society that tuts over the fact that women were abused in such situations, and said it was terrible... but never terrible enough to motivate serious action to do anything about it, you know? Because at the end of the day it wasn't something we cared about all that much.

Well, now we're increasingly in a situation where it's the creepers that have something to be scared about. Does that mean some of them get fired without due process or legal justification? I guess so. It's bad, that. Not so bad that I'm going to actually do anything about it, though.

Are there innocent men who might suffer because of this? Sure, I suppose. My point is to wonder why that seems like a big deal to people when innocent women suffering at the hands of the likes of Weinstein and Moonves never seemed like a big deal to most people.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
Atekimogus
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 1193
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:10 pm
Location: Vienna

Re: Les Moonves resigns

Post by Atekimogus »

Graham Kennedy wrote: So no, I don't find it fishy that woman are coming forward now. They're coming forward now because this is the first time that coming forward is really an option.
Good point, agreed.
Graham Kennedy wrote: Sexual harassment is definitely something worth losing one's job over, IMO. Should they lose it over unproven allegations? Like I said, if it was just one or two, then no. But when a dozen people come forward with the same accusation? Yeah, that's something you should lose your job over.

This is the crux where we need to agree to disagree. First the law needs to be very clear as to what constitutes sexual harassement. The law in the USA defines it as "unwelcome sexual advances"......what the heck does that mean? Definition goes on but it is all very much open to interpretation and your point of view.

A coworker overhears you telling a dirty joke and feels sexually harrased. Should you loose your job over it? You are a manager giving a pep talk to an employee and briefly and encouragingly touch him/her on the shoulder. He/She finds this awkward and "unwelcome". Time to look for a new job? You wander absentmindedly the corridor and bump into someone. He/She looks just for reason to report you to HR for unwelcome advances. These might be extreme examples, but nothing to outlandish right now imho.

As long as those definitions are completely wishy washy and hugely depending on the situation and persons involved the whole thing is rather completely impractical to enforce legally. So they enforce it via hearsay.......and this is where I get really sensitive. This should NEVER be the case.

Is above guy an asshole who deserved it? Probably. Or maybe they just payed off someone to testify that so that they can remove him without paying a severence package or just a power grab. Hard to tell without PROOF. I don't know....this kind of denouncing someone with rather severe consequences without proof.....seems dangerous to me. Like in "good old STASI" times where you could remove unwelcome neighbors that way.


Graham Kennedy wrote: Of their misdeeds coming to light. Of women no longer being scared to report it. Of employers no longer dismissing such reports as "women being hysterical" or "just guys being guys, no big deal". Of a climate in which mistreating women isn't a perk of a job that gives you power over them.

For a long time we've lived in a society that tuts over the fact that women were abused in such situations, and said it was terrible... but never terrible enough to motivate serious action to do anything about it, you know? Because at the end of the day it wasn't something we cared about all that much.

Well, now we're increasingly in a situation where it's the creepers that have something to be scared about. Does that mean some of them get fired without due process or legal justification? I guess so. It's bad, that. Not so bad that I'm going to actually do anything about it, though.

Are there innocent men who might suffer because of this? Sure, I suppose. My point is to wonder why that seems like a big deal to people when innocent women suffering at the hands of the likes of Weinstein and Moonves never seemed like a big deal to most people.
I get what you are saying. (Although - and I am terribly sorry if that is an unpopular fact- women do tend to dramatize things and get more easily hysterical than men under pressure in general. Yes there are exceptions of course) I question if it really ever was that bad. By and large I do believe that most people are more or less decent, just want to do their job and go home. If you believe todays media you would think all women in workplaces around the world have been raped at least once in their live.

More likely they had to deal with assholes and creeps...but let us be honest.....is it really that much different for men? I sure had to deal with my fair share of assholes and creeps and horrible bosses in my work life. If anything my impression is that women have it quite a bit easier since by default less performance is expected of them and they are treated with more respect.

Now granted...I am working at executive level and things might look different for workers...but in my enviromnent....the dreadful woe of women in the workplace...doesn't seem all that bad at all to me and the only time when they are unhappy and feel treated unfairly is.....actualy when they are expected to perform like their male colleagues.......that is clearly sexist. :bangwall: (granted...only my personal experience...I am aware that this is by no means proof of anthing)
I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite store on the Citadel.
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 35635
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:04 am
Commendations: The Daystrom Award
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: Les Moonves resigns

Post by Mikey »

The only problem with that train of thought is the old saw about shoes and feet... we may sympathize with a woman's plight in the workplace, we may try to objectively analyze, but we can never have a truly native understanding of it until and unless we become women.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
User avatar
McAvoy
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Posts: 6225
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:39 am
Location: East Windsor, NJ

Re: Les Moonves resigns

Post by McAvoy »

I don't know. You want to believe the alleged victims. Part of being human being able to empathize with the person. But that is an emotional response.

In court you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. When they select jurors they try to take out the ones for example who were victims of the same crime that they are supposed to sit on. A rape victim sitting on a rape case for example.

Employers can do what they want within the legal limits they are given concerning termination of employees.

On the other hand, definitely true that for a long time women have been dealing with a toxic work environment.
"Don't underestimate the power of technobabble: the Federation can win anything with the sheer force of bullshit"
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 11561
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK
Contact:

Re: Les Moonves resigns

Post by Graham Kennedy »

McAvoy wrote:I don't know. You want to believe the alleged victims. Part of being human being able to empathize with the person. But that is an emotional response.
No, it isn't. When multiple independent sources report the same thing, I think it likely that there is truth to it. That's a rational assessment of the situation, not an emotional one.
In court you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.
And if they were in court, then that's fair enough. But they're not in court. Employers are not required to act in the same way as courts, and doing so is not necessarily in their interests or a good idea.
On the other hand, definitely true that for a long time women have been dealing with a toxic work environment.
Yep.

Incidentally, this may be of interest.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
User avatar
McAvoy
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Posts: 6225
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:39 am
Location: East Windsor, NJ

Re: Les Moonves resigns

Post by McAvoy »

Graham Kennedy wrote:
McAvoy wrote:I don't know. You want to believe the alleged victims. Part of being human being able to empathize with the person. But that is an emotional response.
No, it isn't. When multiple independent sources report the same thing, I think it likely that there is truth to it. That's a rational assessment of the situation, not an emotional one.
In court you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.
And if they were in court, then that's fair enough. But they're not in court. Employers are not required to act in the same way as courts, and doing so is not necessarily in their interests or a good idea.
On the other hand, definitely true that for a long time women have been dealing with a toxic work environment.
Yep.

Incidentally, this may be of interest.
Unless those independent news outlets got the same story from their angle and own evidence. Alot of news outlets practically get the same news from the same source.


If they were in court yes they are innocent until proven guilty. In the court of public opinion, guilty and always guilty no matter what.
"Don't underestimate the power of technobabble: the Federation can win anything with the sheer force of bullshit"
User avatar
IanKennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6155
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Les Moonves resigns

Post by IanKennedy »

McAvoy wrote: Unless those independent news outlets got the same story from their angle and own evidence. Alot of news outlets practically get the same news from the same source.


If they were in court yes they are innocent until proven guilty. In the court of public opinion, guilty and always guilty no matter what.
Yes, the point is not that multiple news vendors have said it. It's rather than multiple people have accused him of the same thing. That isn't a single source.
email, ergo spam
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 11561
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK
Contact:

Re: Les Moonves resigns

Post by Graham Kennedy »

Exactly. If a woman accuses a man of sexual harassment, she might have a grudge, she might be a fantasist, whatever. If ten different women accuse him, are we to believe that they're all like that?

You can, if you want to. For me, that's more than proof enough.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
Post Reply