Rumours, news and general speculation

Discovery

Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby Teaos » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:16 am

Or the are playing the long game and hoping for growth. Like Bashir or DS9.
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby Monroe » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:01 pm

On the SJW issue, I was watching Generation Tech on youtube and the guy there brought up a good point, Janeway worked as a strong woman because the writers didn't feel the need to promote her at the expense of her male counterparts. And that's how true feminism in movies, books, etc. should work. It should elevate women and minorities to the same level as their white male counterparts without putting down their white male counterparts. All the previous Star Treks and Orville does it that way. That is why STD feels so out of place, because it violates this to make Michael some sort of super hero.

It's like in Game of Thrones, people like Jamie who is a bad guy. But they like him because everyone else in the universe is an even worse bad guy. So it elevates Jamie. CBS is trying for the same thing here, to make you like Michael by showing everyone else to be incompetent so the least incompetent person wins. Only STD sucks at this trick.

Generation Tech also brought up a good point, since most Sci-Fi fans are male and most are white male why don't you have a strong white male role model to attack the largest share of the audience? People like to see people who look like themselves in roles and by purposely not casting a strong one (the captain is a bit dark, literally) you lose that personal connection between the majority of your viewership and the show. This is because they're riding everything on Michael being likable and she's frankly not. They need to diversity the POV to the other characters and then maybe that'll make the show better.
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby Graham Kennedy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:11 pm

One thing I'd say is that the show seems to be much more focused on the star than most Trek shows have been. Arguably TOS focused as heavily on Kirk as Discovery does on Burnham, but most every show afterwards was an ensemble cast from the beginning. Maybe it's just that there haven't been enough episodes yet, but so far every Discovery episode has been about Burnham and how awesome she is. There were TNG episodes that barely had Picard in them, or in which he was just a supporting character in the story, but can you imagine Discovery doing that to Burnham?

What really irks me is the way they've set up virtually everybody to adore her so much. Tilly thinks she's the best officer ever, Lorca thinks she's wonderful, Saru thinks she's the smartest officer around... on and on, I don't know if there's a single major character so far who hasn't had an "I love Burnham because she's so awesome" moment. It's grating, especially when it's being directed at a woman who by all rights should be in prison rather than on a Starship.
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby Sonic Glitch » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:10 pm

Graham Kennedy wrote:One thing I'd say is that the show seems to be much more focused on the star than most Trek shows have been. Arguably TOS focused as heavily on Kirk as Discovery does on Burnham, but most every show afterwards was an ensemble cast from the beginning. Maybe it's just that there haven't been enough episodes yet, but so far every Discovery episode has been about Burnham and how awesome she is. There were TNG episodes that barely had Picard in them, or in which he was just a supporting character in the story, but can you imagine Discovery doing that to Burnham?

What really irks me is the way they've set up virtually everybody to adore her so much. Tilly thinks she's the best officer ever, Lorca thinks she's wonderful, Saru thinks she's the smartest officer around... on and on, I don't know if there's a single major character so far who hasn't had an "I love Burnham because she's so awesome" moment. It's grating, especially when it's being directed at a woman who by all rights should be in prison rather than on a Starship.

In all fairness, Bryan Fuller was very clear about this show being about a particular character rather than the traditional ensemble since the beginning. In no way should this be i expected.

Tilly is star-struck and thinks she's great, probably because she's the first person to not roll their eyes at Tilly's personality.

Saru worked with her for years and arguably knows her better than the rest. If he's impressed with her there must be something to back it up.

As far as I can tell, we're still not sire Lorca's motivation for anything he does, including "recruiting" and keeping Burnham.

[Edit]
And, not to knit but I find your story idea from over in the Cerberus thread remarkably similar to the very thing your criticizing Discovery for.
. I was thinking to follow a new officer assigned to the ship. A female Andorian. Not sure why she would have been sent here...
.

Sound familiar :poke:
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby Graham Kennedy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:45 pm

Huh? I don't see what the similarity is. I said "I don't see her as a screw up, more the kind of person who messed with the wrong person maybe"... eg 'she pissed off some Admiral and got a bad posting'. Not 'she started a war that has killed thousands of people for no reason and got the bestest ship in the fleet'. Nor did I intend, if I ever wrote it, to have every other character on the ship ooo and ahhh over how amazingly special she is.
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby Sonic Glitch » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:04 pm

Graham Kennedy wrote:Huh? I don't see what the similarity is. I said "I don't see her as a screw up, more the kind of person who messed with the wrong person maybe"... eg 'she pissed off some Admiral and got a bad posting'. Not 'she started a war that has killed thousands of people for no reason and got the bestest ship in the fleet'. Nor did I intend, if I ever wrote it, to have every other character on the ship ooo and ahhh over how amazingly special she is.

At the beginning of your post you seem to be disagreeing with the notion of a star trek story primarily focusing on a single character, and yet that is exactly what you describe about the Cerberus. Sure, the details are different -- I don't accuse you of being a direct copy -- bit the structure is the same.

As for "oooo-ing and ahhhh-ing" over how wonderful she is, I don't see it. I see a formerly respectable Starfleet officer with talents and abilities her co-workers recognize and that the captain, for heretofore unknown reasons, has decided would be wasted in a prison cell and would rather have her work for him. Why? We don't know yet. Unlike TMG these plot-threads are going to dangle for a while and nit be wrapped up in a 45minute episode or 2-parter. Will the eventual pat-off be worth it? I don't know but I'm interested enough to keep watching and find out. And as a matter of technicality, she did not actually start the war. She did commit mutiny, but that is a separate act from "starting the war." T'Kuvma would've found a way regardless of who was present at the binary stars.
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby Graham Kennedy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:47 pm

Sonic Glitch wrote:
Graham Kennedy wrote:Huh? I don't see what the similarity is. I said "I don't see her as a screw up, more the kind of person who messed with the wrong person maybe"... eg 'she pissed off some Admiral and got a bad posting'. Not 'she started a war that has killed thousands of people for no reason and got the bestest ship in the fleet'. Nor did I intend, if I ever wrote it, to have every other character on the ship ooo and ahhh over how amazingly special she is.

At the beginning of your post you seem to be disagreeing with the notion of a star trek story primarily focusing on a single character, and yet that is exactly what you describe about the Cerberus. Sure, the details are different -- I don't accuse you of being a direct copy -- bit the structure is the same.

No, focusing on a single character is not at all what was intended.

As for "oooo-ing and ahhhh-ing" over how wonderful she is, I don't see it.

I do. At least two or three different characters have told us that she's not just a "salvageable" officer, or even a good one, but rather one of the best there is. Even Saru was dismissing her on one hand only to turn around and call her one of the smartest officers there is. But YMMV, I guess.
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby Graham Kennedy » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:43 am

One of the weird things about Discovery is that some of the changes seem so pointless.

Take Spock. In the recent episode, Sarek was told that either Spock or Michael could join the Vulcan Expeditionary Group, but not both. He chose Spock.

Only... Spock never even tried to join the Vulcan Expeditionary Group. Spock tried to join the Vulcan Science Academy.

I am absolutely baffled by this. I mean, they screwed up the Vulcan sky again, but whilst I disapprove of that I can at least imagine they figured an alien sky should look all cool and science fictiony. It's a bad decision, but at least I can understand it.

But is "Expeditionary Group" somehow better than "Science Academy"? How?
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby DonP » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:30 am

Hmmm I may be working from bad memory or non-canon sources on this aspect, but my recollection is that Sarek wanted Spock to attend the Science Academy and Spock chose Starfleet instead, which is what resulted in them not speaking for years.

edit: Indeed a quick look at Memory Alpha turns up this in the Vulcan Science Academy article: "In 2249, Spock decided to join Starfleet rather than attend the Vulcan Science Academy, against the wishes of his father, Sarek. Spock's decision was motivated by the realization that he would never be seen as an equal by the staff, only as someone who had "overcome the handicap" of half-Human parentage. (TOS: "Journey to Babel" In the alternate reality, Spock likewise declined an invitation to study at the Vulcan Science Academy. (Star Trek)" (The Spock article has already been changed, giving precedence to the DSC version of events)

I agree it still seems like a pointless change, though.
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby F.Ultra » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:28 pm

Graham Kennedy wrote:
Nutso wrote:So Lorca, good guy or bad guy?

I'm betting bad guy.

I think I'm correct in thinking that every white human male on this show is a bad guy in one way or another, yes?


Stammets seams like a good guy. Especially after todays episode.
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby Graham Kennedy » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:12 pm

F.Ultra wrote:
Graham Kennedy wrote:
Nutso wrote:So Lorca, good guy or bad guy?

I'm betting bad guy.

I think I'm correct in thinking that every white human male on this show is a bad guy in one way or another, yes?


Stammets seams like a good guy. Especially after todays episode.

Except that he's probably the mirror universe version of him. At least something weird is going on with him to judge by the weird reflection.
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby DarkMoineau » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:14 pm

Graham Kennedy wrote:
F.Ultra wrote:
Stammets seams like a good guy. Especially after todays episode.

Except that he's probably the mirror universe version of him. At least something weird is going on with him to judge by the weird reflection.


Wouldn't it be the first time a mirror universe version is nicer than the "original" one?
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby Sonic Glitch » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:00 pm

Graham Kennedy wrote:
F.Ultra wrote:
Graham Kennedy wrote:I'm betting bad guy.

I think I'm correct in thinking that every white human male on this show is a bad guy in one way or another, yes?


Stammets seams like a good guy. Especially after todays episode.

Except that he's probably the mirror universe version of him. At least something weird is going on with him to judge by the weird reflection.

Could just be the 'shrooms
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby Graham Kennedy » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:30 pm

DarkMoineau wrote:
Graham Kennedy wrote:
F.Ultra wrote:
Stammets seams like a good guy. Especially after todays episode.

Except that he's probably the mirror universe version of him. At least something weird is going on with him to judge by the weird reflection.


Wouldn't it be the first time a mirror universe version is nicer than the "original" one?

Not if he's just pretending for nefarious reasons of evilness!
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Re: Rumours, news and general speculation

Postby F.Ultra » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:52 pm

Considering how extremely strong Saru is I do wonder how really dangerous the Kelpian predator is.
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