Fix the Craft World Eldar

Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Mikey » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:54 am

IDK if one can make the leap from what's basically a manned AG Tarantula to robots... in any event, as Deep said, they don't have the base to do so - at least not to the extent that they could just expand the Black Guardians to every craftworld and increase the usage of bonesingers.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Deepcrush » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:03 am

This brings me to another major issue of the CW-Eldar. Resources... They lack them to the point that they are growing wrathbone hulls to replace the solid ore based hulls of their older ships. When you have to grow a hull because you can't spare metal because its needed for guns and ammo and even then you're in short supply. You need to spend some time mining... recruit a World of Warcraft addict and give them the mouse control to a mining machine for a few years.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Coalition » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:47 am

Deepcrush wrote:This brings me to another major issue of the CW-Eldar. Resources... They lack them to the point that they are growing wrathbone hulls to replace the solid ore based hulls of their older ships. When you have to grow a hull because you can't spare metal because its needed for guns and ammo and even then you're in short supply. You need to spend some time mining... recruit a World of Warcraft addict and give them the mouse control to a mining machine for a few years.


Wraithbone serves as structural material, power connection, and protection from warp effects; plus it is made from Warp energy, meaning there is technically an infinite supply of it (it just requires a trained Bonesinger to produce). It is stronger than plasteel, harder than adamantium, and can repair itself naturally (or sped up with help). The stuff is actually an improvement over metal hulls, on a per item basis.

Production is probably slower, so I'd want to see a varied group of units in the Eldar Codexes. A set of expendable robots that use metal (replacing Eldar Guardians), while the Eldar use Wraithbone for their armor, weaponry, helmets, etc. You might have the regular Eldar who don the Guardian armor assigned to control teams of robots to handle them in combat (replacing the squad leader equivalent), while the Eldar that actually follow the various Warrior paths are the specialists (HQ, Elite, Fast Attack, & Heavy Support).

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wraithbone
warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Wraithbone
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Deepcrush » Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:26 am

Coalition wrote:Wraithbone serves as structural material, power connection, and protection from warp effects; plus it is made from Warp energy, meaning there is technically an infinite supply of it (it just requires a trained Bonesinger to produce). It is stronger than plasteel, harder than adamantium, and can repair itself naturally (or sped up with help). The stuff is actually an improvement over metal hulls, on a per item basis.


Considering that IG units use frag grenades to crack Eldar tanks, I'm doubting this toughness claim is even close to being true. The only advantage that Wraithbone has is that it can be secured anywhere because it is from the Warp. However its extremely slow to produce and is only as good as the Bonesinger is that's making it.

Coalition wrote:Production is probably slower, so I'd want to see a varied group of units in the Eldar Codexes. A set of expendable robots that use metal (replacing Eldar Guardians), while the Eldar use Wraithbone for their armor, weaponry, helmets, etc. You might have the regular Eldar who don the Guardian armor assigned to control teams of robots to handle them in combat (replacing the squad leader equivalent), while the Eldar that actually follow the various Warrior paths are the specialists (HQ, Elite, Fast Attack, & Heavy Support).


The requirement of the Eldar to produce such a system would be first to secure a home system and second to begin setting up permanent settlements. Which they seem to refuse to do. The Eldar as a whole seem intent on just dying out.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Coalition » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:19 am

Deepcrush wrote:
Coalition wrote:Production is probably slower, so I'd want to see a varied group of units in the Eldar Codexes. A set of expendable robots that use metal (replacing Eldar Guardians), while the Eldar use Wraithbone for their armor, weaponry, helmets, etc. You might have the regular Eldar who don the Guardian armor assigned to control teams of robots to handle them in combat (replacing the squad leader equivalent), while the Eldar that actually follow the various Warrior paths are the specialists (HQ, Elite, Fast Attack, & Heavy Support).


The requirement of the Eldar to produce such a system would be first to secure a home system and second to begin setting up permanent settlements. Which they seem to refuse to do. The Eldar as a whole seem intent on just dying out.


The Eldar can just trade crystals to Imperial mining operations. Why should an Eldar do the dirty work of gathering metals, when mon-keigh can do it instead? The crystals are produced organically aboard Eldar ships and Craftworlds, and have a much higher value to mass ratio than metal or raw foodstock for the Craftworld itself.

Even better, it will appeal to the Eldar superiority complex trading the crystals. If you look in the Xenology book, 4 pages after the Eldar autopsy, the page with Eldar & human DNA on it, Inquisitor Ralei's notes, 1st paragraph, lines 16-17, you will figure out the production method used.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Deepcrush » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:55 pm

For small scale trading that would be fine, but the Eldar are in need of planet scale resources. I just don't see the Eldar being able to support a Xenos economy within the Imperium on the level that matches their needs.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Mikey » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:02 pm

I agree. Even if the Eldar have the monetary equivalent to trade for everything they need, how many times will the encounter a human world that is able or willing to trade them a cruiser squadron's worth of smelted, wrought sheet metal (for example?)
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Deepcrush » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:25 am

The safe bet is ONE, as that world would likely be glassed by the IoM shortly there after and no one would trade on that scale in repeat for a fear of said repeat. Without the permission of the High Lords of Terra, the CWE are pretty much screwed short of a side line trade deal with the Inq.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Mikey » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:06 pm

Even then, the Inquisition would likely want to avoid attracting the attention to its dealings that acquiring resources on that scale would bring. Heck, even doing so would likely bring the rather stern attention of the rest of the Inquisition.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Deepcrush » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:45 am

Very true, small scale trades such as exotic firearms and blades are totally different then CW level exchanges. Having dealings and HAVING DEALINGS are two very different things.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby sunnyside » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:02 pm

My take on the Eldar is that their first fundamental problem is being essentially a bunch of trade ships lucky enough to be far enough away from home when the apocolypse hit. They weren't even warships per se.

Something like a handful of tuna boats and container ships being all that's left of a nation after thermonuclear war.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it the craftworlds themselves are incapable of warp travel. Hence why Ulthwe doesn't just get the heck away from Chaos and set up in some comparatively nice corner of the galaxy. The effect of this is that, even if they wanted to work together closely, the ability of craftworlds to assist each other is heavily limited. Either relying on traveling through the shattered, often shuttered, and certainly dangerous webway or through sending out smaller craft through the warp across vast distances.

Their small size means that capturing and holding planets is difficult. They simply do not have the manpower to expend for that sort of thing. The lack of manpower is also, fluff wise, why they have to push guardians into service.

Now, they could go for wraith armies. But building wraiths presumably means you aren't building vehicles, and would you draft your grandmother so you wouldn't have to fight?

Presumably they could also go for drone armies. Now, I think it's mostly just for game table flavor that few races go that route. But for an in world explination it could be that starting with the C'tan and who knows how many other races, the older races of the galaxy have learned that creating drone armies is a good way to get wiped out by your own creations. And in the new necron fluff those guys are getting ripped up by viruses as well.

The Tau of course are a "young" race and new to this whole expansion thing. I'm also just waiting for them to drop a campaign book where too many drones got together, went sentient, and started ripping up the Tau.

Anyway, my take on what Eldar need to do is start building up numbers by having tons of kids.

Though they may not really want to, with that idea floating around that if they all die out in some proper way they kickstart a new god to finally take out slanesh and give their souls a proper eternal rest.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Mikey » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:45 pm

As I understand it, the craftworlds are less like ships and more like smallish artificial planets. No, they don't travel through the warp - they have fleets of ships that do, the same way as any Imperial world would. You do raise a good point about the reluctance of some craftworlds to employ wraithguards... IIRC, some have pretty strong ethics against it, while some (like Iyanden) have suffered enough losses of numbers to consider it a distasteful but ultimately pragmatic solution.

As far as holding worlds... well, that's what Exodites would be for.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby sunnyside » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:10 am

Mikey wrote:As far as holding worlds... well, that's what Exodites would be for.


Though again, I've never gotten the impression that exodites have forge worlds out there. More like a handful of people that wanted to go all Na'vi and ride around on dragons. Not that they don't have tech, they just aren't exactly spreading all over the planet.

Another issue with population is that, while we and Star Trek writers have a hard time thinking of people with bumps on their head or pointy ears as fundamentally different. The fluff does try and push that the Eldar mind really is alien.

Without ridged control they go all dark eldar or some other sort of obsessive freaky kinky something or other. And many Eldar just can't handle it, so the craftworld population problem is exacerbated by a constant loss to Rangers, Corsairs, Harlequins, and probably their dark bretherin every once in a while. All of those paths likely lead to an increased rate of dying off and not having kids. Exodites might have similar issues.

I get the repeated feeling from the fluff that the population war is one they're loosing, and they may be locked in their ways to an extent that they aren't in a position to break free. I.e. the craftworlds are not willing to shift into orgy mode. Instead perhaps preffiring the risk of eventually getting taken out by something.

---------------------

From a codex point of view, our troops aren't very good in this vehicle heavy edition and that hurts. We're generally overpriced with everybody else getting most of the beinifits we got from fleet and assault weapons by getting run and rapid fire on the move. Also similar units in guard were made cheaper themselves besides that.

GW also seems not to know how to make decent fast attack choices for Eldar. They may be confused because everything else is zipping around at 36" per turn. Why do we have to pay a premium for something that moves slower? They may also be having issues with the idea that evasion isn't good enough when they can shoot the rest of our army. A unit has to do enough damage that an opponent can't just ignore it.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Mikey » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:08 pm

sunnyside wrote:Though again, I've never gotten the impression that exodites have forge worlds out there. More like a handful of people that wanted to go all Na'vi and ride around on dragons. Not that they don't have tech, they just aren't exactly spreading all over the planet.


Right, but what we're discussing is how we'd fix the Eldar - my suggestion here is to use the Exodites as occupation forces since the craftworlds don't have the manpower to occupy. They'd be more than good enough for that.

sunnyside wrote:Without ridged control they go all dark eldar or some other sort of obsessive freaky kinky something or other. And many Eldar just can't handle it, so the craftworld population problem is exacerbated by a constant loss to Rangers, Corsairs, Harlequins, and probably their dark bretherin every once in a while. All of those paths likely lead to an increased rate of dying off and not having kids. Exodites might have similar issues.


AFAIK, the Exodites don't have the same system of paths and Aspects as the craftworlds do, and in general were fairly removed from the Fall in any event. In fact, the paths may be just a bit of an OCD reaction - Sam-Hainn, for example, doesn't follow the paths nearly as strictly as some other craftworlds, and they haven't fallen to Slaanesh. There is definitely a deficit with the Eldar population curve, but it is mitigated to an extent by two things: first, all those rangers, corsairs, and whatever aren't a total loss to the manpower of a craftworld, because they generally come back to help; second, the Eldar's mortality rate is really slow.

sunnyside wrote:From a codex point of view, our troops aren't very good in this vehicle heavy edition and that hurts. We're generally overpriced with everybody else getting most of the beinifits we got from fleet and assault weapons by getting run and rapid fire on the move. Also similar units in guard were made cheaper themselves besides that.

GW also seems not to know how to make decent fast attack choices for Eldar. They may be confused because everything else is zipping around at 36" per turn. Why do we have to pay a premium for something that moves slower? They may also be having issues with the idea that evasion isn't good enough when they can shoot the rest of our army. A unit has to do enough damage that an opponent can't just ignore it.


Huh. Just get Matt Ward to write a codex for you. After all, look at the changes after he finished "Codex: Super god-mod Mary-Sue game-breakers."*

* - Sorry, I mean the 5th Ed. Codex: Grey Knights.
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Re: Fix the Craft World Eldar

Postby Deepcrush » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:25 pm

Eh, Grey Knights are easy to kill when you remember that while their single guys are unmatched. There's still only on for every three of anyone else. Plasma is your friend...
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