Fix the Imperium of Man

Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:32 pm

Deepcrush wrote:The Vatrians (spelling) in fact are a great example have Lasgun similar to Hellguns, for everyone is their regiments.


Do you mean the Vitrian Dragoons, from the Gaunt's Ghosts series? I don't remember anything about their lasguns except that they defied Gaunt's order to lower power when low on ammo. They had that cool reflective crystalline armor, though, which brings up another point - the DM could function a hell of a lot more effectively if production worlds were made to conform to a standard. There was even a point in another Ghosts book at which the Ghosts couldn't even use the charge packs which the DM had issued them.

*EDIT* Naming conventions, too - the Vitrian Dragoons weren't dragoons by a long shot, I don't even remember one APC or IFV being mentioned among them.

Deepcrush wrote:Next issue, since the IG have pretty much been covered to death, is the IN.


Interestingly, I don't have much issue with the Navy except for cases of individual decisions. The overall problem which speaks to that, IMHO, is the system of naval dynasties. The only way to optimize command efficiency is to take officers from officer training, and then promote based on merit and ability ONLY.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:55 am

Mikey wrote:Do you mean the Vitrian Dragoons, from the Gaunt's Ghosts series? I don't remember anything about their lasguns except that they defied Gaunt's order to lower power when low on ammo. They had that cool reflective crystalline armor, though, which brings up another point - the DM could function a hell of a lot more effectively if production worlds were made to conform to a standard. There was even a point in another Ghosts book at which the Ghosts couldn't even use the charge packs which the DM had issued them.


I don't recall the Vitrian's defying the order. Just that Gaunt had to give the order to spare their ammunition when shooting at unarmored enemies. However one of them set his weapon to full power, and shot through the chest plate of a Chaos Marine. Most lasguns have trouble killing a full grown Ork in a single shot without it being a head shot.

Mikey wrote:*EDIT* Naming conventions, too - the Vitrian Dragoons weren't dragoons by a long shot, I don't even remember one APC or IFV being mentioned among them.


They had APCs on the first world they fought along side the Ghosts, but were forced to abandon them in city. Over the next two books, I guess they just never got replaced.

Mikey wrote:Interestingly, I don't have much issue with the Navy except for cases of individual decisions. The overall problem which speaks to that, IMHO, is the system of naval dynasties. The only way to optimize command efficiency is to take officers from officer training, and then promote based on merit and ability ONLY.


I personally have a huge number of problems but I'll stick to my top three for now. First off, the more modern Imperial Cruisers were designed so that they could be easily refitted to battle cruiser standards. This was intended so that the ships could be produced and fielded quickly and yet when not on combat deployment, could be upgraded quickly. However, after four thousand years, only one in four of those cruisers receive refit.

Another problem is the way in which command is issued. Anyone who can get a Sector Lord's sig can take command of a ship. This includes clerks, doctors or just personal friends. Officers are often pushed aside for these issues.

Finally there's the problem of ship production. We know that, dispite the talk of the Ad-Mech, Imperial ships can be built just about anywhere. The Lord Daros was built over a primitive world using the wreck of an old ship to brace the hull of the new one. There's no reason that the IoM hasn't expanded ship production other then they don't want to offend the Ad-Mech. Every single world in the IoM should have some kind of ship production. Even more so since the Cobra can be built on a planet surface and simply lifted to orbit so smaller or less able worlds wouldn't even need shipyards to be built.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:06 am

Deepcrush wrote:I don't recall the Vitrian's defying the order. Just that Gaunt had to give the order to spare their ammunition when shooting at unarmored enemies. However one of them set his weapon to full power, and shot through the chest plate of a Chaos Marine. Most lasguns have trouble killing a full grown Ork in a single shot without it being a head shot.


Deepcrush wrote:They had APCs on the first world they fought along side the Ghosts, but were forced to abandon them in city. Over the next two books, I guess they just never got replaced.


I guess it's time to re-read. :lol: But yes, the difference from author to author as to the firepower of a lasgun is mind-boggling, and all of them are still different from TT.

Deepcrush wrote:First off, the more modern Imperial Cruisers were designed so that they could be easily refitted to battle cruiser standards. This was intended so that the ships could be produced and fielded quickly and yet when not on combat deployment, could be upgraded quickly. However, after four thousand years, only one in four of those cruisers receive refit.


I don't really have the background knowledge to speak to this, but I'm not surprised given the slug-like way that ideas get through the DM.

Deepcrush wrote:Another problem is the way in which command is issued. Anyone who can get a Sector Lord's sig can take command of a ship. This includes clerks, doctors or just personal friends. Officers are often pushed aside for these issues.


I guess this is another facet of my point about dynastic promotion in the IN. The Naval heirarchy, alone, needs to be in charge of officer promotion - and it needs to be done based only on experience and ability.

Deepcrush wrote:Finally there's the problem of ship production. We know that, dispite the talk of the Ad-Mech, Imperial ships can be built just about anywhere. The Lord Daros was built over a primitive world using the wreck of an old ship to brace the hull of the new one. There's no reason that the IoM hasn't expanded ship production other then they don't want to offend the Ad-Mech. Every single world in the IoM should have some kind of ship production. Even more so since the Cobra can be built on a planet surface and simply lifted to orbit so smaller or less able worlds wouldn't even need shipyards to be built.


Feel free to correct me, but aren't most fleet worlds completely separate from Forge Worlds?
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:29 pm

Mikey wrote:I guess it's time to re-read. But yes, the difference from author to author as to the firepower of a lasgun is mind-boggling, and all of them are still different from TT.


For the most part, the use of lasguns is pretty well balanced. But then there are just those times you see the models that you just can't figure why they are being supplied across the whole of the IG.

Mikey wrote:I guess this is another facet of my point about dynastic promotion in the IN. The Naval heirarchy, alone, needs to be in charge of officer promotion - and it needs to be done based only on experience and ability.


To be fair, thats the truth across the whole of the IoM.

Mikey wrote:Feel free to correct me, but aren't most fleet worlds completely separate from Forge Worlds?


There are Naval Command worlds, however they are greatly out numbered by the Admech Forge Worlds.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:21 pm

Deepcrush wrote:For the most part, the use of lasguns is pretty well balanced. But then there are just those times you see the models that you just can't figure why they are being supplied across the whole of the IG.


IDK, in fluff lasguns range from "barely able to singe a Squat's beard" to "crack open the plastron of a Traitor Marine." Sometimes they're autofire, sometimes they're SA; sometimes they shoot beams, sometimes bolts. Who knows.

Deepcrush wrote:To be fair, thats the truth across the whole of the IoM.


Too true.

Deepcrush wrote:There are Naval Command worlds, however they are greatly out numbered by the Admech Forge Worlds.


I know they're outnumbered by the Forge Worlds, but don't the Segmentum and Sector naval bases have pretty good manufacturing capability, independent of the AdMech (save for the resident rune priests?) In any event, as you said, you don't need Forge Worlds to build ships - hell, according to BFG the Lunar-class Lord Daros was built on a Feral World.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:25 am

Mikey wrote:IDK, in fluff lasguns range from "barely able to singe a Squat's beard" to "crack open the plastron of a Traitor Marine." Sometimes they're autofire, sometimes they're SA; sometimes they shoot beams, sometimes bolts. Who knows.


The "who knows" is the problem. The IoM should be looking to supply the best design it can throughout the IG. Not leaving it up to whatever primitive on whatever planet of whatever sector is producing.

Mikey wrote:I know they're outnumbered by the Forge Worlds, but don't the Segmentum and Sector naval bases have pretty good manufacturing capability, independent of the AdMech (save for the resident rune priests?) In any event, as you said, you don't need Forge Worlds to build ships - hell, according to BFG the Lunar-class Lord Daros was built on a Feral World.


My issue is that there are only five Segmentum Naval HQs and around a hundred Sector Naval HQs. The IoM is over a million systems, so why isn't every single system once settled building ships?
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:22 pm

Deepcrush wrote:The "who knows" is the problem. The IoM should be looking to supply the best design it can throughout the IG. Not leaving it up to whatever primitive on whatever planet of whatever sector is producing.


IU answer - logistics. It's a lot easier when a newly founded regiment takes ship with all its own kit already. The fact of the logistical nightmare down the road doesn't seem to matter to anyone.

OOU answer - flavor and character. It looks cooler if the Tallarn Desert Raiders have long, sweeping-stocked lasguns that remind one of antique Mughal wheellocks, if Krieg has guns that look like M98k's, etc.

Deepcrush wrote:My issue is that there are only five Segmentum Naval HQs and around a hundred Sector Naval HQs. The IoM is over a million systems, so why isn't every single system once settled building ships?


I'm in agreement. If a Feral World can build a Lunar-class cruiser, then why can't a Hive World build its own squadrons?
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:44 pm

Mikey wrote:IU answer - logistics. It's a lot easier when a newly founded regiment takes ship with all its own kit already. The fact of the logistical nightmare down the road doesn't seem to matter to anyone.


Which is why deployment/training/supply/muster worlds (which for the sake of typing we'll just state as logistic worlds) would be vastly helpful.

Mikey wrote:OOU answer - flavor and character. It looks cooler if the Tallarn Desert Raiders have long, sweeping-stocked lasguns that remind one of antique Mughal wheellocks, if Krieg has guns that look like M98k's, etc.


I've never had an OOU problem with any of it. But the question was meant for IU.

Mikey wrote:I'm in agreement. If a Feral World can build a Lunar-class cruiser, then why can't a Hive World build its own squadrons?


Exactly.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:37 pm

Deepcrush wrote:Which is why deployment/training/supply/muster worlds (which for the sake of typing we'll just state as logistic worlds) would be vastly helpful.


I agree. The reason I see for why it's done the way it is currently is that it's easier/lazier for the DM. If a Hive World has a population of, say, 200 billion (I'm making that up, but it's reasonable for a typical Hive World) and they tithe 0.1% to IG musters, then there's 200 mil guardsmen that would have to be transported to such a logistic world, equipped, trained, etc. While such a plan would solve a lot of problems - and I'd rather have half the number of such better trained and equipped soldiers than the full number of useless boots - the DM's concern is quantity and speed to the front, not the quality of the troops or their survivability.

Now, I'm not sure where the dividing line is between the concern for IG quality and the DM's lack of concern. Krieg, for example, produces regiments of such quality and loyalty that they've been given dispensation for cloning - which is otherwise completely taboo. If that is the case, and there are other such worlds that produce such high-quality regiments (Cadia, Catachan, Elysia, Tallarn, etc.,) why not raise the manpower from wherever and use those worlds as a select handful of Imperial Parris Islands? One or two such worlds per sector, or even segmentum, would suffice: e.g., all guard conscript tithes from the Segmentum Tempestus get shipped to Tallarn or Krieg for training and muster, becoming the logistic worlds you describe. This would also solve the need for case-by-case exceptions, like Phantine - instead of only providing the non-Navy Phantine Air Corps, because they have no usable land surface to muster regiments, they only have to raise the manpower and get them shipped off to one of these training worlds.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:48 pm

I think you got right what I was saying. Taking such loyal and able worlds and then using them as training centers for troops makes a hell of a lot of sense. It also removes the needs of cloning or fodder infantry since everyone coming from those worlds would be as able as most Stormtroopers.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby alexmann » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:01 pm

Deepcrush wrote:I think you got right what I was saying. Taking such loyal and able worlds and then using them as training centers for troops makes a hell of a lot of sense. It also removes the needs of cloning or fodder infantry since everyone coming from those worlds would be as able as most Stormtroopers.

Right on.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:34 pm

I'm glad you like the idea.

The IoM suddenly flooding out Stormtroopers could put the galaxy to a pause.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:10 pm

Deepcrush wrote:I'm glad you like the idea.

The IoM suddenly flooding out Stormtroopers could put the galaxy to a pause.


I love the idea. The only issue I see is that these troops wouldn't have hellguns or hotshots (depending on which codex ;) .) IG is issued lasguns because the founding worlds can equip their own regiments. I don't have a problem with this - send off your musters to the training worlds already kitted up - as long as the DM issues some sort of standard for charge packs, ammo, and any other consumable. In other words, I don't care if the Elysians use a carbine and the Tallarn use a long, Monte Carlo-stocked lasrifle - as long as they can share charge packs. It sort of makes sense, too - the Tallarn wouldn't need to be outfitted with grav-chutes and HALO gear, while the Elysians wouldn't need sand goggles and dust filters.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:21 pm

The primary problem for the IoM's IG is ammo, there's no telling what you'll get where. But that is an easy fix. While every training world would no doubt have its own preferred type of weapons, due to them basing their training on different fields. It shouldn't be hard to design a universal power-cell for their las-weapons.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:27 pm

Deepcrush wrote:The primary problem for the IoM's IG is ammo, there's no telling what you'll get where. But that is an easy fix. While every training world would no doubt have its own preferred type of weapons, due to them basing their training on different fields. It shouldn't be hard to design a universal power-cell for their las-weapons.


Yeah, that's exactly it. It should be easy enough to take all those different designs and tell everybody that they all must make their lasguns to accept a "size III-b" charge pack (or whatever.)
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