Fix the Imperium of Man

Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:03 am

I showed this list to a few friends at the local GW. Managed to get a great conversation going about the IoM and reached the point of bringing together ideas about individual planets and populations. I also made friends with another waitress at a Bar which I've made the habit of making handcuffing videos with... that though is on my Facebook so for that just look there.

However, back to this. While the conversation lasted about six hours, in the end it boils to this simple question. "Even with as simple as the solutions in the IoM are... is using those solutions possible?" By that I'm asking about the problem of having ten thousand years of everything breaking down. At what point does the IoM just reach a place where its better to collapse and just start all over?

In LotR we see a world of Men which no longer has a singular super power to hold it together. Because of this, the world of Men is much more open to the idea of starting fresh and rebuilding with the Return of the King. In WH40k we have the IoM which even in its more broken and torn state refuses to rethink itself. Refuses to question its standing and accept that maybe things need to change. With the fall of Arnor, Middle Earth was free to change at its own rate (for good or bad is up to opinion). So for this I try to think of what if the 13th Black Crusade and succeeded in breaking the Cadian Gate and then striking at Segmentum Solar or Sol itself. Imagine the sudden shift in how things are run when the bulk of the IoM's forces are drawn back towards Sol to break the Chaos advance. Segmentum Solar becomes isolated while the rest of the IoM spends a few years on its own.

I was just hoping to hear some thoughts on this from some of you here who are interested in 40k.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:14 pm

The problem is that the IoM isn't based on the word of the Emperor - it's based on the varying interpretations of differently-thinking people of the word of the Emperor. While Malcador may have been closest to the correct interpretation, there's no guarantee that an above-the-law Inquisition was really what the GEoM wanted (for example.) Further, the medieval attitude of the bulk of the Imperium doesn't mesh with the way things are; the deity of the Imperium is such due to his status as one of the - if not the sole - greatest psykers of all time... yet the bulk of the Imperium hunts, shuns, and screws anyone who might share a partial version of that gift. This is further confused because of the fact that the dangers present to human psykers mean that such hunting et. al. is probably partly justified. :roll:

While collapse and rebuilding might seem the ultimate, or at least penultimate, solution, consider the fact that this is what preceded the Great Crusade - and even without the resultant entombment of the GEoM and governmental chaos that ensued, look what happened just in terms of the planets involved. Some went rebel after returning to the IoM; some (likke the Squats) decided to play nice but not rejoin; and differing aspects of the IoM like the AdMech went so far as to stop just short of autonomy.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:27 pm

So at what point would you feel the IoM reaches the point of no return?
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:40 pm

Deepcrush wrote:So at what point would you feel the IoM reaches the point of no return?


Good question. One could say that it was as early as the GEoM's emplacement into the Golden Throne, because that's the point at which the IoM started to be governed by guesses/lies about what he wanted; but if I had to guess at a more recent time at which the IoM went over the edge, I'd say it was with Sebastian Thor.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:40 pm

That's a good choice of timing. I like that idea a lot. Under Thor, the Inq was weakened so much that it was unable to press its control. The Astartes were united in a way that hadn't been seen since the Great Crusade of Enlightenment.

The next question is what would the effect be on the IoM? Would it fall to civil war, would those who followed Thor turn and look to build their own version of the IoM? Or would they willingly part ways and look to rebuild. Maybe awaiting the guide of the Custodes on how to restore the IoM.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:51 pm

The biggest problem with Thor and the end of the Age of Apostasy was one that couldn't be avoided - the resurgence of the Imperial Cult as the unifying force of the IoM, and alongside that the complete suspicion of alternate viewpoints as seditious. Of course, they are seditious if enforced faith is the glue of your empire. If Vandire had been deposed in a less spectacular way, I think you might have seen a much more secular, advanced, and progressive civilization.

Of course, if you've got that you have the problem of being unable to deal with the Tau, the 'Nids, and Chaos...
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:16 pm

The advantage of the Tau is their technology and unity. Had the IoM been a more progressive nation, the Tau would have been in a lot more trouble when facing them.

The problem with facing Nids comes from organizing defenses. Fighting against sheer numbers when your defense is the IG as it is now isn't a good thing. Then again, a more progressive IoM may have a more modern IG to use.

The advantage of Chaos is that they have the ability to wreak fear throughout the IoM. That so few understand Chaos or the threat that is represents.

I do fully agree that the resurgence of the Imperial Cult as the unifying force of the IoM was unavoidable. However that unifying force of faith doesn't require the IoM to be a single faction vs being a confederation.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:28 pm

Well, that's the problem with using faith as a unifying force... it isn't unified. The whole of the IoM nominally has the same root of their belief - the belief in the GEoM. However, each of the Adeptus has its own little slant, to say nothing of the Astartes - of which each chapter has its own religion and may regard the Emperor as god, revered ancient warrior-spirit, or nothing more than a long-dead battle-brother. Then, there's the IG, for which each planet's contributions have their own flavors of religion. Hell, even within the Ministorum there are great differences in ritual and philosophy. Likewise the Inquisition. Likewise...

See where I'm going? Faith has turned the IoM into a confederation, as you say, rather than a single faction. Unfortunately, the friction between the parties of that confederacy means that the confederation moves glacially.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:07 pm

The IoM isn't really a confederation. Its a fractured Empire where different groups fight for power. In a confederation, the groups work towards a common goal while remaining autonomous. This clearly isn't the IoM. The Astartes just hand wave near everyone but the Inq, and even then the Inq has to be careful not to push the Astartes to far. The AM are always treading a thin line between being important to the IoM as a whole vs being the guys holding onto valuable planets that other factions in the IoM would love to get their hands on.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:25 pm

Yes, that's kind of my point. I referred to the IoM as a "confederacy" nominally only; but the reason it has stagnated is awful friction between all the different groups. I mentioned the religious differences because we were talking about using the Imperial Cult as a unifying force; but that's only in addition to the friction generated by indistinct and overlapping spheres of influence and the basic mistrust between groups. The Arbites should work hand-in-hand with the Inquisition; the Ecclesiarchy should work hand-in-hand with the IG and the planetary governance; the Astartes should work closely aligned to the IG and the IN; and the AdMech should work in step with the Ordo Xenos, the IG, the IN, and the DM. Instead, however, all those groups are at loggerheads and trying to prosecute their duties in spite of each other instead of along with each other... even going so far as to hinder each other.

Example: There is a governmental department solely and specifically designed to administer and oversee the temples of assassins. There is also the Ordo Sicarius within the Inquisition... to oversee the assassins. This not only hinders the actual work of the assassins, it makes it harder for the Officio Assassinorum to manage its components. This is just an example; it goes on in almost every department of the IoM government, save perhaps the Adeptus Custodes.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:42 pm

Similar issue as with the Inq trying to control the Astartes, even though the Astartes are supposed to be totally separated from the IoM and each other to avoid another HH.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:47 pm

Deepcrush wrote:Similar issue as with the Inq trying to control the Astartes, even though the Astartes are supposed to be totally separated from the IoM and each other to avoid another HH.



If only it were just control. Don't forget, the Ordo Malleus actually created its own chapter, aside from the GK's.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:19 pm

I don't think the DW really counts as its own chapter. Seeing how its made up of part time members from other chapters on loan.

Aside from that, there are a rather high number of accounts from the fluff of SMs going to war with the Inq. Not just shouting matches but open warfare. Its no wonder so many of the chapters out there have just given up on the IoM as a whole and just go about at their own wills.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Mikey » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:16 pm

Deathwatch? No, my friend, I mean the chapter which the Ordo Malleus created for itself - the Exorcists. But yes, the Inquisitions meddling in the affairs of SM chapters which are, by rights, strictly war-fighting entities, is ridiculous.
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Re: Fix the Imperium of Man

Postby Deepcrush » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:03 am

Oh okay... somehow I just totally forgot about them. Even so I don't mind the idea of the Inq having its own chapter of SMs. To me it makes more sense that they have their own rather then them trying to boss the Astartes around as a whole.
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