Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby mwhittington » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:34 am

So neutrinos are exhibiting characteristics of a tachyon, eh?

From Wikipedia:
Despite the theoretical arguments against the existence of tachyon particles, experimental searches have been conducted to test the assumption against their existence; however, no experimental evidence[5] for the existence of tachyon particles had been found until the CERN laboratory in Geneva, Switzerland made public the results of an experiment with neutrinos[6] that found them 60 nanoseconds faster than light. The findings have yet to be independently duplicated.
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby colmquinn » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:23 am

mwhittington wrote: Sic........
From Wikipedia:........



I think I've found a flaw in your argument.

But aside from that. :) No disrespect but I'm happy for a crazy result. Crazy results advance science. I spent 4 yrs in college doing science (maajor in Biological Sci - in relation to foods & related pathogens) but a crazy result that is totally unexpected is just wow. Either way its a result.
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby Mikey » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:36 pm

Agreed - if everything always came out the way it was expected, there would never be a need for experimentation. On an interesting tangent, we're seeing a merging of the heretofore distinct groups of actual and theoretical particles.
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby colmquinn » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:26 pm

I do believe we live in insterting times. And I for one look forward to it.

Whether we be right or wrong I want to find out. The tech to determine the situ exists already, or so we think. If things can travel faster than light then is that where the 80% of the universe is we can't see? The part we can't see (sorry thats dark energy & matter I think)
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby Mikey » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:40 pm

Well, one of the most interesting fundamentals of physics is that we can't tell everything about anything, and most of the time we can't precisely tell where anything is at all. What I find most interesting about this is the idea that it could completely demolish special relativity... but special relativity has been seemingly correct about so much.

Colm, have you been (or, "hav u bin") browsing from a phone?
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby Captain Seafort » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:53 pm

Mikey wrote:What I find most interesting about this is the idea that it could completely demolish special relativity... but special relativity has been seemingly correct about so much.


It won't demolish it, any more than relativity demolished Newtonian physics - there's too much supporting evidence. All that would happen would be that special relativity would be demonstrated to be imprecise or inaccurate under certain conditions.
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby Mikey » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:41 pm

I gotta tell ya, I'm about full to bursting with all these different models of physics that come with the caveat that "this works all the time... except when it doesn't."
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby Captain Seafort » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:50 pm

It's not so much "works all the time... except when it doesn't" so much as "pi = 3.14, no it's 3.1416, no its 3.141593, no its..." They're all right, some simply aren't as precise as others. If these results prove to be accurate then we've simply discovered the limits of special relativity's precision.
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby colmquinn » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:00 pm

Mikey wrote: ....Colm, have you been (or, "hav u bin") browsing from a phone?

Possbly :)
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby Graham Kennedy » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:09 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:It's not so much "works all the time... except when it doesn't" so much as "pi = 3.14, no it's 3.1416, no its 3.141593, no its..." They're all right, some simply aren't as precise as others. If these results prove to be accurate then we've simply discovered the limits of special relativity's precision.

Exactly. Relativity and Newtonian physics aren't alternatives - technically you could use relativistic calculations all the time, it's just that it's a hell of a lot harder and for most purposes the answer you get is the same to like six decimal places.
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby Mikey » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:27 am

Not to a layman. My studies in engineering physics came to a crashing halt at the level of Calculus V and journal bearings. What us not-so-erudite huddled masses get is that Newtonian physics works... except at relativistic metrics. Then special relativity works... except when you're talking about things in the realm of quantum mechanics. Then, you can talk about strings and D-branes in attempt at a GUT or TOE, but for some esoteric reason that TOE seems to be just about as elusive as a philosopher's stone and harder to understand...
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby Graham Kennedy » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:05 pm

Mikey wrote:Not to a layman. My studies in engineering physics came to a crashing halt at the level of Calculus V and journal bearings. What us not-so-erudite huddled masses get is that Newtonian physics works... except at relativistic metrics.


And that's a good approximation. Newtonian physics does work... just not quite perfectly.

Look at time dilation. It's given by t = t0 / (1-(v^2/c^2))^.5

Approximating c to 3e8, if you're going at 90% of c, then for 1 second of outside time you experience 1 / (1-(2.7e8^2/3e8^2))^.5 = 0.435 seconds, which is quite a big difference between you and the outside world.

At everyday speeds this effect all but vanishes. Even for a jet doing the speed of sound, 340 m/s... 1 / (1-(340^2/3e8^2))^.5 = 0.999999999999358 s. Your time is virtually identical to the outside world's time.

For a guy walking down the road at 1 m/s, the effect is still present - but it's so small that I actually can't work it out because I can't find any application capable of calculating to that many decimal places.

Newtonian equations are never accurate - it's just that they're more than accurate enough, for anything you're ever likely to encounter.
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby Mikey » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:33 pm

Yes, I get that. I may not have your store of knowledge in the subject, but I'm not moronic. I guess a better way to express my sentiment is that every new discovery seems to push us farther from a GUT or TOE rather than closer.
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby Graham Kennedy » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:16 am

I didn't suggest you were moronic.

I guess a better way to express my sentiment is that every new discovery seems to push us farther from a GUT or TOE rather than closer.

<shrug> It's a process, and no telling where it will end. If the past is any guide we could still be trying to work this stuff out a thousand years from now. :)
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Re: Astounding discovery: Faster-than-light particle

Postby Tyyr » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:15 pm

I am starting to hate this discovery. If I have to hear one more dumbass cry, "Physics is wrong! Now we have to throw it all out!" I'm gonna choke a bitch.
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