Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Tsukiyumi » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:27 pm

SolkaTruesilver wrote:this is not meant to minimise what happened to your people, Tsu, but just to point out that coutries around the world just don't care about your people when they evaluate wether or not the US had colonial ambitions.


I guess that makes me feel a little better about not caring about those countries' awful, awful time under British colonial rule. :lol:
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:30 pm

Tsukiyumi wrote:
SolkaTruesilver wrote:this is not meant to minimise what happened to your people, Tsu, but just to point out that coutries around the world just don't care about your people when they evaluate wether or not the US had colonial ambitions.


I guess that makes me feel a little better about not caring about those countries' awful, awful time under British colonial rule. :lol:


I think you get the point pretty well! :mrgreen:

But yhea, that's pretty much why I am sometimes a cynic when it comes to international relations. If you don't want any trouble in the future, just leave no survivor of importance.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:47 pm

SolkaTruesilver wrote:Yes.. and no. Sorry to say, but there is little people of any influence that resent US's action against the native americans, as they have pretty much exterminated your people.

As opposed to, let's say, Morroco, Algeria, India, Pakistan, South Africa, Congo, Vietnam, China, Birmany, etc... all of these have natives which survived the colonial time and remember the European's hold on their country.

this is not meant to minimise what happened to your people, Tsu, but just to point out that coutries around the world just don't care about your people when they evaluate wether or not the US had colonial ambitions.


So, on the one hand you have a power that takes control of a given territory for the purposes of exploiting its natural wealth, but leaves the native population more or less alone, and significantly improves certain aspects of their culture (e.g. the ban on suttee).

On the other hand you have a power that takes control of a given territory for the purposes of exploiting its natural wealth, and clears the land of the local population through genocide.

From this you produce the statement that that the latter power lacks "any aggressive colonial history". Kindly go and fuck yourself with a cattle prod you retarded piece of filth.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Mikey » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:52 pm

I only said "overseas" because that was the most obvious illustration of what Solka was discussing. The main difference I can see is that Manifest Destiny was about nation-building, not "merely" colonial holdings. What the burgeoning U.S. did to the NAN was awful, but it also happens to be a different subject - the U.S. could have prosecuted Manifest Destiny without doing such terrible things.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:36 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:From this you produce the statement that that the latter power lacks "any aggressive colonial history". Kindly go and f**k yourself with a cattle prod you retarded piece of filth.


Well, it wasn't a "colonial" history, more like a "settlement" history. USA weren't interested (didn't needed to) in conquering developped territory, they had to go in wild territory and create everything from scratch. They didn't started ruling over the native americans, they just "resettled" them (which had led them to their extinction, but it was probably more accidental than intentional).

As opposed to going to, let's say, India and conquering the local governments, pillaging their vaults and forcing their people to grow opium so you can have tea.

Which is still less bad than what the US has done to their black population, obviously. But then again, few countries actually cared what happened to them. (Writing these words, I realise just how much the world's opinion has cut quite a lot of slack to the US)

Let's say, you got an indonesian or a middle-eastern country that has a conflict. Which of the world's power would you rather have over to help you solve the conflict? Great Britain or France, both of which have, historically, took control and had colonial provinces inside or neighbouring your country, or the US, which never had any actual involvement in the region beforehand?

And Seafort, starting to throw feces in a discussion would be more worthier of monkey than you. Keep your arguments to the point, as they are sometime hard to understand on their own without going through whatever you lump with them.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Mikey » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:46 pm

#1 - Seafort's use of blue language is NOT the same as flaming. We don't censor that sort of language, provided it is used en route to a point.

#2 - Check your glass house before you throw stones. Canuckistan's treatment of the First Nations shows considerable international slack-cutting itself.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:52 pm

SolkaTruesilver wrote:Well, it wasn't a "colonial" history, more like a "settlement" history. USA weren't interested (didn't needed to) in conquering developed territory, they had to go in wild territory and create everything from scratch.


It certainly was a colonial history - they were colonising the interior of the American continent, just as we colonised the interior of the Indian subcontinent. The key difference is that we subjugated the local population, either by smashing the existing power structure and replacing it with our own, or by appropriating the existing powers as client states. A vastly superior method that the genocide the US preferred.

They didn't started ruling over the native americans, they just "resettled" them (which had led them to their extinction, but it was probably more accidental than intentional).


That was one method. The other was what was later referred to as some as "evacuation". If you don't know the context, go and watch "Conspiracy". A pretty good film with Kenneth Branagh, but fucking frightening.

Which is still less bad than what the US has done to their black population


The US treatment of its black population was downright mild compared to what they did to the native Americans.

Let's say, you got an indonesian or a middle-eastern country that has a conflict. Which of the world's power would you rather have over to help you solve the conflict? Great Britain or France, both of which have, historically, took control and had colonial provinces inside or neighbouring your country, or the US, which never had any actual involvement in the region beforehand?


Utterly irrelevent to the discussion at hand, which is the relative treatment of the Indians and the native Americans at the hands of the relevant colonial powers, and the colonial nature of American expansion.

And Seafort, starting to throw feces in a discussion would be more worthier of monkey than you. Keep your arguments to the point, as they are sometime hard to understand on their own without going through whatever you lump with them.


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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Tsukiyumi » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:52 pm

SolkaTruesilver wrote:...They didn't started ruling over the native americans, they just "resettled" them (which had led them to their extinction, but it was probably more accidental than intentional)...


The almost laughable inaccuracy of this aside, the US's expansion into "territories" rather than "colonies" is a matter of semantics, IMO. And, even aside from the continental expansion, what about our acquisition of several moderately sized "territories" in the south pacific and Caribbean? Puerto Rico, Guam, Cuba and the Philippines, and a number of other previous colonies of Spain all became "ours" after the Spanish-American War. Was our goal in that war territorial expansion? Yes, more than likely.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Mikey » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:57 pm

I think the key difference there is that the possessions which you describe were spoils of war - no matter the reasons behind the war. The African, Asian, and Latin American colonies of the major European powers were expressly colonized, not won from another major power.

Again, that means little to the subjugated people, but it is a difference as far as the framework of this discussion.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Tsukiyumi » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:02 pm

Mikey wrote:I think the key difference there is that the possessions which you describe were spoils of war - no matter the reasons behind the war. The African, Asian, and Latin American colonies of the major European powers were expressly colonized, not won from another major power.

Again, that means little to the subjugated people, but it is a difference as far as the framework of this discussion.


Okay, you have a point.

How about Alaska? We bought it without discussing anything with the native population. Then we moved people up there. Isn't that about the same thing?

Really, I guess Solka's point about the rest of the world not caring about the facts insofar as their opinion of the matter is what bothered me. If everyone is so grossly misinformed, we really shouldn't care about their opinions.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Mikey » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:20 pm

If you mean the Alaskan Inuit, it's six of one and half-a-dozen of the other. Seward bought it not from the Inuit, but from Russia.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:34 pm

Mikey wrote:The African, Asian, and Latin American colonies of the major European powers were expressly colonized, not won from another major power.


India, Iraq, Palestine, Transjordan, Namibia, Tanzania, New Guinea. All British colonies taken as prizes of war.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby BigJKU316 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:54 pm

Anyway, back on the original point a railgun makes a lot of sense for the navy. Eventually solid-state lasers will be a major threat to the delivery of missile type weapons against high value targets. This would counter that quite nicely I would think.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Mikey » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:14 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Mikey wrote:The African, Asian, and Latin American colonies of the major European powers were expressly colonized, not won from another major power.


India, Iraq, Palestine, Transjordan, Namibia, Tanzania, New Guinea. All British colonies taken as prizes of war.


Fantastic. Hardly relevant, though. We were discussing the difference between U.S. lands taken as part of Manifest Destiny a/o prizes of war versus colonial territories developed expressly by and for colonial empire-building. The fact that the British Empire had territories of both types hardly invalidates the second type of example.

BigJKU316 wrote:Anyway, back on the original point a railgun makes a lot of sense for the navy. Eventually solid-state lasers will be a major threat to the delivery of missile type weapons against high value targets. This would counter that quite nicely I would think.


Excellent point. Nobody had mentioned the use of a rail gun system as a counter to anti-missile systems, but you're dead-on. People tend to forget that lasers, even once developed into practicable anti-ballistic systems, will require a dwell time > 0 in order to affect a target.
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Re: Navy Tests Electromagnetic Railgun

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:27 pm

Mikey wrote:Fantastic. Hardly relevant, though. We were discussing the difference between U.S. lands taken as part of Manifest Destiny a/o prizes of war versus colonial territories developed expressly by and for colonial empire-building. The fact that the British Empire had territories of both types hardly invalidates the second type of example.


Entirely relevant. We had the Mandates, you had Cuba and the Philippines. We had India and half of Africa, you've got a great chunk of the American continent between the Rio Grande and the St Lawrence. We both combined nicking land off other great powers with nicking land off the locals.
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