Justification Of God's Dubiously Just Acts

[Reliant121]

So because some people are c*nts, its a reason to commit genocide?

[Captain Seafort]

If your refering to the flood, ther is no evidence that peoples existed that far out.

So your riposte to the point that God wiped out all life on the planet with the exception of those that kowtowed to him is that human life wasn't particularly widespread? What the fuck does that have to do with the fact of genocide?

As it is, its also written that the entire Earth was filled with badness, so that God regretted making man, or something along those lines. The entire Earth, not just the bit that Noah lived in.

Assuming that this is accurate, given that the entire thing is written from God's point of view and therefore has a vested interest in presenting his opinions as fact, how does it excuse genocide?

The Earth itself is not a living organism, no. But it is like a living organism in that it has many of components (like cells) that form one huge web of life.

Is the Earth sapient? Is it sentient?

We are to bacteria as God is to us. We cannot begin to understand the difference in viewpoint, that would be like an ant trying to understand why we humans kill them.

God's viewpoint is made pretty damn clear repeatedly throughout the Old Testament - if a subset of a given population fails to meet with his approval, the entire population should be wiped out. This is applied on global, national and familial scales.

Considering humans are often caled a disease, an affliction on this planet, I have no problem making such a comparison. After seeing the effects of slash and burn loggers, I will gladly compare that to the effects of gangrene.

1) See Reliant's answer

2) Answer my questions above regarding the sapience and sentience of our little ball of rock.

[stitch626]

1) Sapience and Sentience are human definitions created to put us above other creatures. As far as we know, they may or may not have any meaning in God's eyes.

2) Genocide only applies forma human stantpoint. If an intelligent but increadibly advanced and "cultured" alien race saw us and how we act, they would think of us as no different than the other creatures on this planet, except more distructive.

So your riposte to the point that God wiped out all life on the planet with the exception of those that kowtowed to him is that human life wasn't particularly widespread? What the f**k does that have to do with the fact of genocide?

No. When I said that he didn't wipe out all of Asia, etc, you mentioned the flood. I was pointing out that from a biblical standpoint, there is no evidence that those ares were inhabited.

Then, as a separate point, I mentioned the whole Earth being filled with badness bit.

As for protecting only those who "kowtowed" to him, thats his right. He created us and as such can demand our obedience. Unless you want to claim that we cannot expect a toaster to do as we ask.

[Aaron]

I created my son. Do I have the right to demand his obedience? Do I have the right to demand his fealty and obedience after he's an adult?

[Reliant121]

This is the fundamental difference, and one that can't be argued in my opinion.

I, as an Atheist, am quite content to judge god by my standards because...well what the hell else do I judge him by? or Judge anything whatsoever by? God may be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent but I to say that he can do whatever the fuck he wants because he's called god, and is more powerful than us to me is fundamentally ludicrous.

As a religious believer, you seem quite happy to say "meh, its god, so it must be right in his eyes".....I'm sorry, I just...don't get it.

[stitch626]

I created my son. Do I have the right to demand his obedience? Do I have the right to demand his fealty and obedience after he's an adult?

Difference, your son is close to your equal. He is of the same species. Has the same potential for growth.

and is more powerful than us to me is fundamentally ludicrous.

Remember that next time you go to squash an ant.

[Reliant121]

Is it right that I step on the ant? No. I don't think it is. To be fair, I do it out of ignorance of the ants presence.

That doesnt change the fact that its wrong.

[stitch626]

Ok, well you are one of few. I meant intentional.

I don't know about int he UK, but here ants are pests and when in the house, they get squashed.
Even ones outside get killed at times, though I don't mind them outside where they belong.

[Aaron]

Difference, your son is close to your equal. He is of the same species. Has the same potential for growth.

How? A child looks on a parent as a god basically until they are teens, I have virtually unlimited power over the kid and the ability to shape his outlook on life at will. That he will one day become my equal does not remove the fact that he will one day leave.


Like I said earlier, believe what you want. But it does sound ludicrous to someone without your beliefs.

[Tsukiyumi]

...I don't mind them outside where they belong.

I'm going to get Old Testament on a fire ant mound in my front yard sometime this week. Mmmm. Genocide.

[Mikey]

As a religious believer, you seem quite happy to say "meh, its god, so it must be right in his eyes".....I'm sorry, I just...don't get it.

Of course you don't - that's why you're an atheist. I don't quite follow the first part of your hypothetical quote, but here's the crux. I won't demand an explanation of G-d, because I believe in a religion. You must demand an explanation, because you are an atheist. Of course, you won't get one, because G-d is the ultimate item of faith without proof.

Similarly, G-d is more than capable of understanding his actions. He's undoubtedly well aware of what his actions meant, and of considering other possible paths to getting to the solution that he desires. He's undoubtedly able to differentiate between good acts and evil acts (or at least he should be, as he certainly has enough to say on the matter if the Bible is to be believed).

I would say that G-d is rather conscious on a level which we can't fathom, and His morality is as incomprehensible to us as our world would be to a 2-dimensional organism. If my atheist friends here see this as a cop-out or handwave explanation, I can understand - howevr much that it is truly what I believe. But there again - faith in G-d is the ultimate explanation of belief without proof.

[Aaron]

I'm going to get Old Testament on a fire ant mound in my front yard sometime this week. Mmmm. Genocide.

Every year those fuckers have a nest right next to my back door. Not this year....



@Mikey:

Well at least your honest enough to admit it and your not using it as justification to purge folks you don't like. That I can respect.

Those WBC buggers, not so much.

[Reliant121]

As a religious believer, you seem quite happy to say "meh, its god, so it must be right in his eyes".....I'm sorry, I just...don't get it.

Of course you don't - that's why you're an atheist. I don't quite follow the first part of your hypothetical quote, but here's the crux. I won't demand an explanation of G-d, because I believe in a religion. You must demand an explanation, because you are an atheist. Of course, you won't get one, because G-d is the ultimate item of faith without proof.

Similarly, G-d is more than capable of understanding his actions. He's undoubtedly well aware of what his actions meant, and of considering other possible paths to getting to the solution that he desires. He's undoubtedly able to differentiate between good acts and evil acts (or at least he should be, as he certainly has enough to say on the matter if the Bible is to be believed).

I would say that G-d is rather conscious on a level which we can't fathom, and His morality is as incomprehensible to us as our world would be to a 2-dimensional organism. If my atheist friends here see this as a cop-out or handwave explanation, I can understand - howevr much that it is truly what I believe. But there again - faith in G-d is the ultimate explanation of belief without proof.

To be fair, i'm probably spouting a load of bull that even I dont understand

In the end, I think its safe to say atheists will see religious people as either blind or handwaving, and religious people will see the atheists as blind and cynical.

Cant win

[Captain Seafort]

1) Sapience and Sentience are human definitions created to put us above other creatures. As far as we know, they may or may not have any meaning in God's eyes.

So fucking what? Incidentally, sentience applies to most animals, and sapience probably applies to at least some in addition to humans - dolphins and the great apes for example. They are useful methods of measuring the intelligence of given species, regarding whether they're self aware, and if so whether they have human-like analytical abilities (recognising their own reflection for example). We created the names and the exact definitions, but the intelligence of the various species, and the fact that humans are more intelligent than any other species, are not affected by the names we give.

2) Genocide only applies forma human stantpoint. If an intelligent but increadibly advanced and "cultured" alien race saw us and how we act, they would think of us as no different than the other creatures on this planet, except more distructive.

Yes they would think of us as different. No other species is as widespread as humans, or as effective (in the literal sense) on their environment.

No. When I said that he didn't wipe out all of Asia, etc, you mentioned the flood. I was pointing out that from a biblical standpoint, there is no evidence that those areas were inhabited.

Once again you're missing the fucking point. This particular line started when you tried to refute the tendency of God to solve an infected foot by killing the owner of the foot, as in the flood. The precise extent of the human race at the time is utterly irrelevant - they were all wiped out.

Then, as a separate point, I mentioned the whole Earth being filled with badness bit.

To which I responded, and do so again: so fucking what?

As for protecting only those who "kowtowed" to him, thats his right.

Agreed. However, we're not talking about God only protecting his followers, we're talking about him committing or ordering the genocide of everyone else.

[Mikey]

Well at least your honest enough to admit it and your not using it as justification to purge folks you don't like. That I can respect.

In turn I fully respect your right to say, "prove it" before you believe it.

Further, I believe that I must make my own morality; just because G-d killed entire nations of people doesn't mean that I think it's right for mankind to emulate.