Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Graham Kennedy » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:26 pm

Tsukiyumi wrote:I'd say that they're trying something with proven results, that's only outside of "medicine" because drug companies can't profit from it. Doesn't mean it doesn't work.


This makes no sense. If it has proven results then it would be something that drug companies can and would profit from. It's things that DON'T work that drug companies can't profit from. Although you can even sell stuff that doesn't work these days, you just have to label it "alternative" or "complimentary".
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Mikey » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:46 pm

Of course it makes sense. Accupuncture and massage therapy work, but drug manufacturers don't make money from them.
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Graham Kennedy » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:55 pm

No they don't work. If they did, medical companies would work out why and exploit it.
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Aaron » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:00 am

Massage therapy does work (well for me) but it's very short term. Like short=gone by the ride home.

They already have exploited it; muscle relaxants.
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Mikey » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:02 am

They DO work. Both in my personal experience, and as reflected by the facts that MD's recommend them and that private insurance carriers will cover such therapy with documented recommendations.
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Graham Kennedy » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:22 am

No, they do not. Personal anecdotes are not proof, even if you have a bunch of them, and "MDs recommend them" means nothing except that MDs recommend them, etc.

Show me a double blind study that shows they work. Only you can't, because the actual studies show that they don't.
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Mikey » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:30 am

So, it's OK to accept use by drug companies as proof, but not use by doctors? Nope, sorry.
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Aaron » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:32 am

Do we have a WTF? smiley?

I find it odd that massage therapy has no beneficial effect, yet if I want it covered by my insurance I need to go get a prescription. A company whose entire business involves sucking every last penny out of you is willingly paying for something with no benefit?
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Graham Kennedy » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:35 am

Mikey wrote:So, it's OK to accept use by drug companies as proof, but not use by doctors?


No, it is not, and I never said any such thing.

"Use by drug companies" is not proof. Properly conducted double blind medical studies are. It so happens in our society that the former follows on from the latter, in the case of real medicine at least, but it's the studies that prove it.
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Aaron » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:37 am

Would you mind posting a study then? Because frankly this breaks my plausible/implausible meter.
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Graham Kennedy » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:40 am

Cpl Kendall wrote:Do we have a WTF? smiley?

I find it odd that massage therapy has no beneficial effect, yet if I want it covered by my insurance I need to go get a prescription. A company whose entire business involves sucking every last penny out of you is willingly paying for something with no benefit?


Doesn't that kind of answer your own question. Of COURSE insurance companies will pay for things with no benefit, the entire quack medicine industry makes them a fortune - it's the classic selling snake oil business.

You know they're arguing in the UK about which "complimentary" medicines are good value for money in these cash strapped times. Is the NHS's homeopathic hospital value for money, for instance? Only they hit a problem... you judge the value for money by looking at how much they cost versus how effective they are. And unfortunately, you can't tell the effective ones from the bad ones because when you do a proper study of them, NONE of them are effective.
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Aaron » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:42 am

GrahamKennedy wrote:
Doesn't that kind of answer your own question. Of COURSE insurance companies will pay for things with no benefit, the entire quack medicine industry makes them a fortune - it's the classic selling snake oil business.

You know they're arguing in the UK about which "complimentary" medicines are good value for money in these cash strapped times. Is the NHS's homeopathic hospital value for money, for instance? Only they hit a problem... you judge the value for money by looking at how much they cost versus how effective they are. And unfortunately, you can't tell the effective ones from the bad ones because when you do a proper study of them, NONE of them are effective.


Actually I have a vague recollection that certain coverage is required by law. Insurance companies here just fill in the gaps anyways, stuff the UHC doesn't cover (like scripts).

Edit: Homeopathic hospital? What the hell is that?
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Graham Kennedy » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:47 am

Cpl Kendall wrote:Would you mind posting a study then? Because frankly this breaks my plausible/implausible meter.


This one shows that "fake" acupuncture works just as well as the "real" thing.

At 6 months, response rate was 47.6% in the verum acupuncture group, 44.2% in the sham acupuncture group, and 27.4% in the conventional therapy group. Differences among groups were as follows: verum vs sham, 3.4% (95% confidence interval, -3.7% to 10.3%; P = .39); verum vs conventional therapy, 20.2% (95% confidence interval, 13.4% to 26.7%; P < .001); and sham vs conventional therapy, 16.8% (95% confidence interval, 10.1% to 23.4%; P < .001.


In other words, classic placebo effect.

This one

"Both groups of patients reported they believed the treatment had been invasive and effective in reducing nausea. However, 68 percent of patients who got the acupuncture experienced nausea for an average of 19 days during radiotherapy and 61 percent of the patients who got the sham treatment suffered nausea for an average of 17 days," said the study's lead researcher Anna Enblom, a physiotherapist and doctoral student at the Faculty of Health Sciences, Linköping University in Sweden.

Vomiting was experienced by 24 percent of the patients getting acupuncture and 28 percent of patients receiving the sham treatment, Enblom added.

Fifty-eight of the patients received chemotherapy in combination with radiotherapy. Among them, 82 percent of those in the acupuncture group developed nausea, compared with 80 percent of those treated with the sham needles.

"There was no statistically significant difference between the groups in the number of days with nausea or vomiting or in the intensity of the nausea, neither in the patients receiving radiotherapy alone, nor in those receiving a combination of chemotherapy and radiotherapy," said Enblom. "Our study may indicate that attitudes and expectations play a major role in the experience of the effect of the treatment."
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Aaron » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:49 am

Huh, must just be the "big titted chick rubbing me" effect. :wink:

No way in hell would I let someone stick needles in me unless it's medically required anyways.
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Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Tsukiyumi » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:19 am

Cpl Kendall wrote:No way in hell would I let someone stick needles in me unless it's medically required anyways.


Amen.
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