Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby The piman » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:29 am

there is a growing controversy on whether or not parents have the right to deny their children medical help/attention based on their (the parents') religious/moral beliefs. is this a valid reason for denying children needed help?
Be excellent to one another...
User avatar
The piman
Chief petty officer
Chief petty officer
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:33 pm
Location: the space between spaces

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Nickswitz » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:23 am

I don't really see a problem with it...

But that's because I am a Jehovah's Witness, and do not believe in using blood for any purpose. Therefore people sometime say we are putting our children in danger... But it is one of our deep seated religious beliefs, which is why I stick to it.
The world ended

"Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world" - R.D.Lang
User avatar
Nickswitz
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 6745
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Home

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Deepcrush » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:53 am

Faith is a choice, so as I see it the choice should be left to the person suffering and not their parents.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Sionnach Glic » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:49 am

A child can't competantly give consent to or refuse treatment. If a kid dies or suffers due to their parent's beliefs, throw said parent in jail for child abuse.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
User avatar
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby shran » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:07 am

Nickswitz wrote:But that's because I am a Jehovah's Witness, and do not believe in using blood for any purpose. Therefore people sometime say we are putting our children in danger... But it is one of our deep seated religious beliefs, which is why I stick to it.


You don't have to endanger children or anyone with refusing to use blood. there are alternatives such as artificial blood. Interestingly enough, I learned that from the Witnesses themselves, when they once came to my door. So that argument is basically out of the window, if you condone using artificial blood.
shran
Commander
Commander
 
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:28 pm

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Reliant121 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:04 am

The child is in no position to make a choice. thats the first thing to get clear.

The second is where it gets hazy. What do you want more? You're child to live, or you're god to see your respecting his wishes (according to the tenets of that particular faith?)

For me, its a blindingly obvious choice: Child comes first, apologize to god later.



However, I am not religious.
"He was the best of us. They struck without provocation, there was no reason. Animals! Brutal! They deserve no mercy! Strike them down, follow them back to their base and kill all of them, all of them! No mercy!" - Delenn
User avatar
Reliant121
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 12063
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:00 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:11 am

shran wrote:You don't have to endanger children or anyone with refusing to use blood. there are alternatives such as artificial blood. Interestingly enough, I learned that from the Witnesses themselves, when they once came to my door. So that argument is basically out of the window, if you condone using artificial blood.


And how much artificial blood is there in the world? How long does it last? How easy or otherwise is it to produce? How expensive is it? How effective is it compared to real blood? What types can it be produced in? The fact that there are still huge campaigns to persuade people to donate blood, and that the artificial stuff is rare enough that the majority of people don't even know it exists, strongly suggests that it isn't the magical solution to blood shortages that JWs seem to treat it as. I'd advise taking the claims of any door-to-door salesmen with a large helping of salt.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14943
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Nickswitz » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:04 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
shran wrote:You don't have to endanger children or anyone with refusing to use blood. there are alternatives such as artificial blood. Interestingly enough, I learned that from the Witnesses themselves, when they once came to my door. So that argument is basically out of the window, if you condone using artificial blood.


And how much artificial blood is there in the world? How long does it last? How easy or otherwise is it to produce? How expensive is it? How effective is it compared to real blood? What types can it be produced in? The fact that there are still huge campaigns to persuade people to donate blood, and that the artificial stuff is rare enough that the majority of people don't even know it exists, strongly suggests that it isn't the magical solution to blood shortages that JWs seem to treat it as. I'd advise taking the claims of any door-to-door salesmen with a large helping of salt.


Artificial blood is actually not really fake blood, but it's more different method, at least that's all I can think of. I know because of witnesses there have been a lot of non-blood procedures. Such as blood renewal, I believe it's called, basically running the person's blood through an artificial heart to keep it running through the body, especially the heart surgery. Means you can disconnect the heart and the body still runs.

Um... I don't have the others at hand to look at right now... as well as having to work a lot today, but tomorrow if your still interested I'll give you some more.
The world ended

"Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world" - R.D.Lang
User avatar
Nickswitz
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 6745
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Home

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:22 pm

Nickswitz wrote:Artificial blood is actually not really fake blood, but it's more different method, at least that's all I can think of.


Artificial, therefore not from bone marrow, therefore fake. The fact that there are still huge drives for donations strongly suggests that it isn't as good, can't be produced in bulk, or is too expensive. Therefore we still need to use real blood.

I know because of witnesses there have been a lot of non-blood procedures.


Bully for you, although I somewhat doubt that such a tiny minority of the worlds population are solely responsible for developing alternatives. In the meantime children are still dying because the idiotic scum they have for parents refuse to let doctors treat them appropriately.

Such as blood renewal, I believe it's called, basically running the person's blood through an artificial heart to keep it running through the body, especially the heart surgery. Means you can disconnect the heart and the body still runs.


Great - given the shortage, the more we can do to limit usage the better. It doesn't change the fact that it can't replace blood - if someone springs a leak you need to plug it and replenish what was lost.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14943
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Tyyr » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:26 pm

Deepcrush wrote:Faith is a choice, so as I see it the choice should be left to the person suffering and not their parents.

And legally a child can't make those choices, that's the problem. Till the kid hits 18 their parents have sway over them.

Personally I think that after you reach the age of majority you can deny medical treatment all you want, your choice. If you'd rather die that get a blood transfusion then... well ok that's on you, but you can't force that on someone else, not even your child. Until the kid can legally make decisions for themselves the parents can't decide they should die for the parent's beliefs.
User avatar
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Nickswitz » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:32 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:Bully for you, although I somewhat doubt that such a tiny minority of the worlds population are solely responsible for developing alternatives. In the meantime children are still dying because the idiotic scum they have for parents refuse to let doctors treat them appropriately.


I've shown the links before actually. Doctors have said that witnesses are the reason behind most of them. Because although they are a very small percentage they are a very large percentage that argue about getting blood.

I'm going to try and find those links again for you...
The world ended

"Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world" - R.D.Lang
User avatar
Nickswitz
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 6745
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Home

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:58 pm

Nickswitz wrote:Because although they are a very small percentage they are a very large percentage that argue about getting blood.


Which should at least be a hint as to who's got their head screwed on straight and who hasn't.

Tyyr wrote:Personally I think that after you reach the age of majority you can deny medical treatment all you want, your choice. If you'd rather die that get a blood transfusion then... well ok that's on you


Exactly my take on it. I have no problem with Darwin Awards. I do have a problem with child abuse amounting to manslaughter.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14943
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Graham Kennedy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:31 pm

The piman wrote:there is a growing controversy on whether or not parents have the right to deny their children medical help/attention based on their (the parents') religious/moral beliefs. is this a valid reason for denying children needed help?


In my view a person's right to their belief ends when that belief harms another. Religious people are welcome to refuse medical treatment for themselves if they want, it's their body to harm if they want to harm it. But when they harm their children instead, I think society has a right and duty to say "No" to that.

To me it's really very little different from if a person's religion demanded that they rape their children once a week between the ages of seven and eight, or slit the throat of all female children at age ten. Such things simply would not be allowed to happen, and to my mind refusing medical care for a sick child is absolutely no different to inflicting harm on a well child.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Tsukiyumi » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:09 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:Artificial, therefore not from bone marrow, therefore fake. The fact that there are still huge drives for donations strongly suggests that it isn't as good, can't be produced in bulk, or is too expensive. Therefore we still need to use real blood...


I think it just needs more funding.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
User avatar
Tsukiyumi
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 21664
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:38 pm
Location: Forward Torpedo Tube Twenty. Help!

Re: Medical Help Vs. Religious Beliefs

Postby Deepcrush » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:52 pm

Ask the kid if they want to live or die. Its really simple as far as I see it.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Next

Return to Science, Philosophy and Theology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest