Abortion

Re: Abortion

Postby Sonic Glitch » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:53 pm

Lighthawk wrote:
BigJKU316 wrote:I don't pretend that any scientific reasonsing guides me on this. I just find the notion of denying something the chance at life for any reason other than it threatens yours to be wrong.


First off, let me just say that I don't condone using abortion as a method of birth control. Use the pill, use a condom, use something to stop if before it happens. I also can't condone late term abortion, while I can not say when exactly it goes from being just a bunch of cells to an actual person, I do believe there is a point where it does, and that said point is before birth. If you're going to get an abortion, get it early as possible.

Now that said, I do take issue with the whole "denying the potential child life" stance. Could that collection of cells become a child? Yes. But you know what, so could every sperm and egg cell produced by every human body. To me, once you start down that "that could have been somebody" path, where do you draw the line? Taken to the extreme, I could say that every man is denying trillions upon trillions of "potential" people a chance at life with all the sperm he lets die just within his own body. Never mind if he masterbates (and lets face it, if you're a guy, you have) and throws them in the trash or flushes them.

Every sperm and egg has the potential, but its not only absurd, but impossible to give every single one of them the chance to become a person. So where do you draw the line? Conception? Just because the sperm and egg met, does that really increase their potential that much more? I don't know, but just because it could have been, doesn't mean it was, and I'm not about to be upset about things that might have been.

I apologize for this, I really do, but some parts of your argument reminded me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk
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Re: Abortion

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:55 pm

Why apologise? He was making the same point as the Pythons - that the "potential life" argument is stupid because of the absurd lengths it can be taken to.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Sonic Glitch » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:05 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:Why apologise? He was making the same point as the Pythons - that the "potential life" argument is stupid because of the absurd lengths it can be taken to.

The ingrained fear that someone, somewhere, may be offended? Much like the ingrained Puritan fear that someone, somewhere may be happy?
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Re: Abortion

Postby stitch626 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:25 pm

Only problem I see with such an argument (nice like btw) is that the aperm/egg by itself is not a potential "life". Do whatever you want to an egg by it self, and all you'll get is a single egg. It requirs both for a child to be a potential.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:31 pm

stitch626 wrote:Only problem I see with such an argument (nice like btw) is that the aperm/egg by itself is not a potential "life". Do whatever you want to an egg by it self, and all you'll get is a single egg. It requirs both for a child to be a potential.


Try telling that to Benny.
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Re: Abortion

Postby stitch626 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:41 pm

Good point.
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Re: Abortion

Postby BigJKU316 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:45 pm

Like I said, what I think has not real basis in scientific concepts or even a good logical grounding. However I don't think either of those really get you to much of an answer on this issue. It is much more of a matter of personal belief than anything. Attempting to attack one viewpoint or another with science or logic really gets you nowhere.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:37 pm

BigJKU316 wrote:Like I said, what I think has not real basis in scientific concepts or even a good logical grounding. However I don't think either of those really get you to much of an answer on this issue. It is much more of a matter of personal belief than anything. Attempting to attack one viewpoint or another with science or logic really gets you nowhere.


Why exactly would anyone who isn't a fucking idiot base their opinion on something that directly affects people's physical and mental health on anything but science and logic? If you want to advocate a course of action then you should have reasons for that action, not just "it feels right", or similar. Your reasoning might lead to a completely different conclusion than someone else's, but failing to use any reasoning at all is an indication of laziness and stupidity.
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Re: Abortion

Postby BigJKU316 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:57 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
BigJKU316 wrote:Like I said, what I think has not real basis in scientific concepts or even a good logical grounding. However I don't think either of those really get you to much of an answer on this issue. It is much more of a matter of personal belief than anything. Attempting to attack one viewpoint or another with science or logic really gets you nowhere.


Why exactly would anyone who isn't a f***ing idiot base their opinion on something that directly affects people's physical and mental health on anything but science and logic? If you want to advocate a course of action then you should have reasons for that action, not just "it feels right", or similar. Your reasoning might lead to a completely different conclusion than someone else's, but failing to use any reasoning at all is an indication of laziness and stupidity.



In short, some issues and viewpoints are not really suited to that sort of process. At some point in the logical chain you end up falling back to what you believe. Does life start at conception? At viability? At birth? There is no science that tells you which one of those is right.

Like I already said, I don't think anyone is advocating not allowing abortion if it would kill someone to not get it done. But outside of that black and white issue how one chooses to weigh the isssues at hand is really a matter of personal belief more than anything.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:09 pm

BigJKU316 wrote:In short, some issues and viewpoints are not really suited to that sort of process. At some point in the logical chain you end up falling back to what you believe. Does life start at conception? At viability? At birth? There is no science that tells you which one of those is right.


Yes there is - use the same definition as death. If there's no electrical activity in the brain then there's no life.

Like I already said, I don't think anyone is advocating not allowing abortion if it would kill someone to not get it done. But outside of that black and white issue how one chooses to weigh the issues at hand is really a matter of personal belief more than anything.


In other words you are using logic. You may be giving different factors different weighting, but you are still weighing the pros and cons of the various factors, and your conclusions may be open to attack, but you'd still be using logic.
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Re: Abortion

Postby BigJKU316 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:18 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
BigJKU316 wrote:In short, some issues and viewpoints are not really suited to that sort of process. At some point in the logical chain you end up falling back to what you believe. Does life start at conception? At viability? At birth? There is no science that tells you which one of those is right.


Yes there is - use the same definition as death. If there's no electrical activity in the brain then there's no life.



Not really the same thing. 85% of pregnancies don't miscarry so one could make an argument that even absent brain function you are denying likely brain function for the baby. Your position is perfectly valid but illustrates what I was trying to say.

I am not saying it is impossible to try and apply logic to this issue. I just don't think you are going to end up getting much more than a persons opinon on the matter because you can basically take any number of tracks to arrive at whatever solution you wished.

A person who is Pro-Choice can say and be accurate saying that the fetus cannot survive on its own and hence gets no protection under the law.

A person who is Pro-Life could say and be accurate saying that the fetus from the moment of conception on has a far above average chance of being viable and thus deserves protection under the law.

Neither statement is factually or logically wrong. It really comes down to how a person feels on the matter as to which logical path they wish to take.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Mikey » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:05 am

Lighthawk wrote:
BigJKU316 wrote:I don't pretend that any scientific reasonsing guides me on this. I just find the notion of denying something the chance at life for any reason other than it threatens yours to be wrong.


First off, let me just say that I don't condone using abortion as a method of birth control. Use the pill, use a condom, use something to stop if before it happens. I also can't condone late term abortion, while I can not say when exactly it goes from being just a bunch of cells to an actual person, I do believe there is a point where it does, and that said point is before birth. If you're going to get an abortion, get it early as possible.

Now that said, I do take issue with the whole "denying the potential child life" stance. Could that collection of cells become a child? Yes. But you know what, so could every sperm and egg cell produced by every human body. To me, once you start down that "that could have been somebody" path, where do you draw the line? Taken to the extreme, I could say that every man is denying trillions upon trillions of "potential" people a chance at life with all the sperm he lets die just within his own body. Never mind if he masterbates (and lets face it, if you're a guy, you have) and throws them in the trash or flushes them.

Every sperm and egg has the potential, but its not only absurd, but impossible to give every single one of them the chance to become a person. So where do you draw the line? Conception? Just because the sperm and egg met, does that really increase their potential that much more? I don't know, but just because it could have been, doesn't mean it was, and I'm not about to be upset about things that might have been.


Sorry, but it doesn't work. The slippery slope for which you're looking isn't there. It's not a question of the same potential of a zygote as of a separate sperm and egg; it's the difference between "could be" (sperm and egg) or "will be unless acted upon by an outside influence" (zygote.) Using a false slippery-slope proposition to declaim responsibility doesn't fly.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Lighthawk » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:22 am

Mikey wrote:Sorry, but it doesn't work. The slippery slope for which you're looking isn't there. It's not a question of the same potential of a zygote as of a separate sperm and egg; it's the difference between "could be" (sperm and egg) or "will be unless acted upon by an outside influence" (zygote.) Using a false slippery-slope proposition to declaim responsibility doesn't fly.


Okay well first off, simply taking out abortion doesn't give a zygote a 100% chance of...well anything, reaching adulthood, childhood, or even birth. And it doesn't even take an outside influence to cause it, things are quite capable of going wrong inside the zygote itself. You can't state that it "will be", because you don't know what might happen.

Beyond that though, I never said anything about responsibility. I merely stated that simply having the possibility of achieving something, in this cause becoming a person, is not something I consider a valid point for saying that abortion is a bad thing. If you have an abortion, then you are most certainly responsible. It's what exactly you're responsible for though, that's the point of the conflict over abortion. I don't think a collection of cells being destroyed, regardless of what they might be capable of becoming, is murder. Some people agree with that, some disagree.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Tsukiyumi » Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:09 am

I still feel awful about what happened, even though I had no idea, and no say in it. I also still believe it was Kat's choice; not mine.

I still cry about it, on occasion, but I know she did what she thought was right. From a logical standpoint, it was right. Doesn't make me feel any better about it.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Vic » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:41 am

That's because you're basically a good human being Tsuki. Unfortunatly this whole idea that it is only the woman's choice literally disenfranchises responsible men who really do care about it. It really makes me want to say "News flash toots, it was my sperm, it IS my responsiblity."
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