Abortion

Re: Abortion

Postby The piman » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:23 pm

Reliant121 wrote: Inevitably, in my limited experience at least, a child born to a family underage in particular is going to have a really shitty childhood. I'd rather abort the pregnancy, then birth a child into a crap life.


then you should really feel guilty for not controlling your copulating needs in the first place.

GrahamKennedy wrote: If the person genuinely believes that the fetus is not in any sense a person, then they might easily believe there's very little loss involved.


I think that is pretty much the underlying argument of debate about the whole abortion argument. who cares if it's just a bunch of growing and multiplying cells that could become something more. on the other hand...
Be excellent to one another...
User avatar
The piman
Chief petty officer
Chief petty officer
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:33 pm
Location: the space between spaces

Re: Abortion

Postby Sionnach Glic » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:37 pm

The piman wrote:then you should really feel guilty for not controlling your copulating needs in the first place.


Who's to say they didn't take precautions? No method is 100% effective, after all.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
User avatar
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Abortion

Postby The piman » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:43 pm

Sionnach Glic wrote: Who's to say they didn't take precautions? No method is 100% effective, after all.


that's exactly why if you can't afford it or you are not in a position to put a baby in a good atmosphere, you should not "do it." of course there are specific cases where an abortion would be infinitely more appropriate such as rape, incest, or the pregnancy would endanger the life of the mother. but if it's not these, what right does anyone have in including a baby in one's life if they can hardly take care of themselves?
Be excellent to one another...
User avatar
The piman
Chief petty officer
Chief petty officer
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:33 pm
Location: the space between spaces

Re: Abortion

Postby Lighthawk » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:38 pm

The piman wrote:
Sionnach Glic wrote: Who's to say they didn't take precautions? No method is 100% effective, after all.


that's exactly why if you can't afford it or you are not in a position to put a baby in a good atmosphere, you should not "do it." of course there are specific cases where an abortion would be infinitely more appropriate such as rape, incest, or the pregnancy would endanger the life of the mother. but if it's not these, what right does anyone have in including a baby in one's life if they can hardly take care of themselves?


So me and my wife, who are in no financial situation right now to raise a child properly, so just stop having sex, even though we do take precautions to avoid pregnancy? Sorry, but you can take that idea and shove it, shove it so far that your father feels it, cause it ain't happening. Sex is about more than making babies, we both not only thoroughly enjoy it, we believe it is an important element to a healthy marriage. We're not going to stop just because there is a very low percentage chance she might get pregnant.
Image
User avatar
Lighthawk
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 4632
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 6:55 pm
Location: Missouri, USA, North America, Earth, Sol System, Orion Arm, Milkyway Galaxy, Local Group, Universe

Re: Abortion

Postby The piman » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:51 pm

Lighthawk wrote: So me and my wife, who are in no financial situation right now to raise a child properly, so just stop having sex, even though we do take precautions to avoid pregnancy? Sorry, but you can take that idea and shove it, shove it so far that your father feels it, cause it ain't happening. Sex is about more than making babies, we both not only thoroughly enjoy it, we believe it is an important element to a healthy marriage. We're not going to stop just because there is a very low percentage chance she might get pregnant.


this is perfect. so, as an example, what would be your train of thought if you found out your wife was pregnant?
Be excellent to one another...
User avatar
The piman
Chief petty officer
Chief petty officer
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:33 pm
Location: the space between spaces

Re: Abortion

Postby Lighthawk » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:06 pm

The piman wrote:
Lighthawk wrote: So me and my wife, who are in no financial situation right now to raise a child properly, so just stop having sex, even though we do take precautions to avoid pregnancy? Sorry, but you can take that idea and shove it, shove it so far that your father feels it, cause it ain't happening. Sex is about more than making babies, we both not only thoroughly enjoy it, we believe it is an important element to a healthy marriage. We're not going to stop just because there is a very low percentage chance she might get pregnant.


this is perfect. so, as an example, what would be your train of thought if you found out your wife was pregnant?



Shit > We can't afford to raise a child > We did everything reasonable we could to avoid pregnancy > Time to have a long talk > Most likely result: get an abortion, and get it damn soon.
Image
User avatar
Lighthawk
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 4632
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 6:55 pm
Location: Missouri, USA, North America, Earth, Sol System, Orion Arm, Milkyway Galaxy, Local Group, Universe

Re: Abortion

Postby Tsukiyumi » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:11 pm

Lighthawk wrote:...Sex is about more than making babies, we both not only thoroughly enjoy it, we believe it is an important element to a healthy marriage...


Married or not, it's an important element to a healthy relationship between members of the opposite sex, IMO. Sexual tension is irrefutable, and damn hard to work around.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
User avatar
Tsukiyumi
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 21729
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:38 pm
Location: Forward Torpedo Tube Twenty. Help!

Re: Abortion

Postby sunnyside » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:09 am

Tsukiyumi wrote:I think more efforts should be made in getting teenagers to understand the real repercussions that will haunt you forever (if you have any form of conscience, that is),


I see other people have commented on that, but my two cents is that "conscience" is more or less non existant except in what society endows on someone. For example the earlier mentioned cultural difference where with my ancestors, if the father decided his newborn child wasn't strong enough or what have you than they'd leave it to the cold and the wolves and have a clean conscience, despite how people on this board seem to feel about such a practice.

About any despicable thing you can think of has been alright to do in some culture at least to the members of some other culture or race that the first didn't like or considered not really human.

And it can change surprisingly quickly.

In short, the concept of "concience" only applies to a snapshot of a specific society. More or less all bets are off as to what things will be like two generations later.
User avatar
sunnyside
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 2466
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Abortion

Postby Tsukiyumi » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:21 am

Well, I'm talking about informed human beings, not what our ancestors would do. Comanche women that were in labor while the tribe was on the move for a hunt were left behind to have the baby and catch up later. Doesn't mean that's what I'd do, or that it's a responsible thing.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
User avatar
Tsukiyumi
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 21729
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:38 pm
Location: Forward Torpedo Tube Twenty. Help!

Re: Abortion

Postby Mikey » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:29 am

Agreed with LH and Tsu, that sex is an important part of a healthy relationship... and for those not married, that's for far more than just reasons of base animal motivations. However, abortion is NOT, should not, and can not be an alternative form of birth control. Forget about moral concers, do you have any idea what kind of physical trauma that causes to a woman's organs? I wasn't trying to have either one of my kids... as far as the first, let me just say - whatever you heard about hot tubs, forget it. Either that, or I have asbestos sperm. Anyway, despite that fact, my two kids are far and away the two most indescribably incredible things that could have ever happened to me.

Am I struggling financially? You bet. But could I have justified an abortion in either case? No way. Those kids weren't the product of rape or incest, and neither pregnancy was going to endanger my wife. Abortion just for the sake of "not feeling like" dealing with the consequences of your actions is pathetic.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33315
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: Abortion

Postby Tsukiyumi » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:26 am

Agreed.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
User avatar
Tsukiyumi
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 21729
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:38 pm
Location: Forward Torpedo Tube Twenty. Help!

Re: Abortion

Postby Reliant121 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:00 pm

Mikey wrote:Abortion just for the sake of "not feeling like" dealing with the consequences of your actions is pathetic.


While I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, part of me will think the child is going to suffer long term for parents who just cant be arsed. But thats an unknown and unquantifiable variable really.
"He was the best of us. They struck without provocation, there was no reason. Animals! Brutal! They deserve no mercy! Strike them down, follow them back to their base and kill all of them, all of them! No mercy!" - Delenn
User avatar
Reliant121
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 12098
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:00 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: Abortion

Postby Mikey » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:01 pm

Reliant121 wrote:
Mikey wrote:Abortion just for the sake of "not feeling like" dealing with the consequences of your actions is pathetic.


While I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, part of me will think the child is going to suffer long term for parents who just cant be arsed. But thats an unknown and unquantifiable variable really.


Perhaps. There's a burgeoning and morally-dubious field of fertility medicine which can largely be sidestepped, however.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33315
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: Abortion

Postby BigJKU316 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:05 pm

Deepcrush wrote:To me, killing anyone be it unborn child or man with a knife coming into your home... is still murder. Its wrong, no matter how you twist it. The problem is that killing a child is rarely going to be a life or death matter for the other persons involved. Killing the man with a knife is another matter. While the murder is still a sin, it would also be a sin if I didn't stop him and I would be guilty for every murder he committed after that as I had the chance to stop him.

In recap, if there isn't a life or death factor. Then there is no reason for abortion. Again, this is all IMO.


That pretty much sums it up for me. Abortions for any reason other than the mothers life being in danger are simply a matter of convenience for the mother and yet another attempt to dodge consequences for actions in our society.

I don't pretend that any scientific reasonsing guides me on this. I just find the notion of denying something the chance at life for any reason other than it threatens yours to be wrong.
User avatar
BigJKU316
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:19 am

Re: Abortion

Postby Lighthawk » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:48 pm

BigJKU316 wrote:I don't pretend that any scientific reasonsing guides me on this. I just find the notion of denying something the chance at life for any reason other than it threatens yours to be wrong.


First off, let me just say that I don't condone using abortion as a method of birth control. Use the pill, use a condom, use something to stop if before it happens. I also can't condone late term abortion, while I can not say when exactly it goes from being just a bunch of cells to an actual person, I do believe there is a point where it does, and that said point is before birth. If you're going to get an abortion, get it early as possible.

Now that said, I do take issue with the whole "denying the potential child life" stance. Could that collection of cells become a child? Yes. But you know what, so could every sperm and egg cell produced by every human body. To me, once you start down that "that could have been somebody" path, where do you draw the line? Taken to the extreme, I could say that every man is denying trillions upon trillions of "potential" people a chance at life with all the sperm he lets die just within his own body. Never mind if he masterbates (and lets face it, if you're a guy, you have) and throws them in the trash or flushes them.

Every sperm and egg has the potential, but its not only absurd, but impossible to give every single one of them the chance to become a person. So where do you draw the line? Conception? Just because the sperm and egg met, does that really increase their potential that much more? I don't know, but just because it could have been, doesn't mean it was, and I'm not about to be upset about things that might have been.
Image
User avatar
Lighthawk
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 4632
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 6:55 pm
Location: Missouri, USA, North America, Earth, Sol System, Orion Arm, Milkyway Galaxy, Local Group, Universe

PreviousNext

Return to Science, Philosophy and Theology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest