Weapons and Warfare

Mark
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Mark »

One thing I didn't expect was that the Samuri's armor to be as tough as it was. I DO wonder though, if the spear head had been steel instead of bronze if it would have penetrated.

But the Spartans shield was unmatchable.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

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Mark wrote:One thing I didn't expect was that the Samuri's armor to be as tough as it was. I DO wonder though, if the spear head had been steel instead of bronze if it would have penetrated.
Samurai armor is amazingly effective. People have a habit of under scoring it as much as they over score Samurai blades. If the Spartan's spear had been steel, it most likely wouldn't have bent. But its ability against the Samurai's armor wouldn't have changed. A human powered spear isn't strong enough to punch through later period Samurai armor.
Mark wrote:But the Spartans shield was unmatchable.
The Hoplon was the true measure of a Spartan. His abilities with his shield were MORE important in training then even his spear and sword combined. The one thing I find so funny is that while the Samurai could claim superior training and education over most of the warriors on the show. The only one he really should have respected was the Spartan. Yet he constantly under estimated him... and then paid for it.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Mark »

I was kind of hoping to see his katana break on the Spartan shield. THAT would have been entertainment 8)

They dismissed the other winners out of hand because of a lack of armor, but another good match up would have been the Apache vs the Shoulin, I think.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

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Mark wrote:I was kind of hoping to see his katana break on the Spartan shield. THAT would have been entertainment
Yeah, but watching the look on the Samurai's face when he hit that shield with everything he had and the Spartan just stared him down... priceless.
Mark wrote:They dismissed the other winners out of hand because of a lack of armor, but another good match up would have been the Apache vs the Shoulin, I think.
Not just the lack of armor but the lack of the ability to defeat armor. The Apache have a solid range advantage against the Shoulin.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Mikey »

Mark wrote:One thing I didn't expect was that the Samuri's armor to be as tough as it was. I DO wonder though, if the spear head had been steel instead of bronze if it would have penetrated.

But the Spartans shield was unmatchable.
Samurai armor wasn't necessarily weak just because it was light and flexible. It's biggest failing would have been against weapons which were not native to Japan. It was effective against slicing and penetrating weapons, because those were the types of attacks a samurai would have faced. When we say it would have been ineffective against a European sword, that's because of the type of attack - a heavy, chopping blow. The impact of such an attack would come right through the scales of samurai armor, even if the cutting edge didn't penetrate. The sharpness and penetration of European medieval swords is generally greatly overrated anyway.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Indeed. It's the same issue that comes up with a katana vs European armour. It's just not made to deal with them, because they would have never appeared in its place of origin.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

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I just had a nice thought. If you hit that Samurai armor with say.....a battle axe, it may not penetrate, but you'd have all kinds of ruptured organs.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Aaron »

Mark wrote:I just had a nice thought. If you hit that Samurai armor with say.....a battle axe, it may not penetrate, but you'd have all kinds of ruptured organs.
Well the most effective weapons against armoured opponents back then where ones like maces, hammers, axes, etc. It's rather like beating a tin of bully beef with a hammer.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Mark »

I just found the numbers for the matchup!

Spartan vs Samurai

Ancient match results---------Spartan Kills----------Samurai Kills
Close Range--------------Short Sword 10-----------------Katana 15
Mid Range----------------------Spear 339-------------Naginata 141
Long Range--------------------Javelin 16------------------Yumi 175
Special Weapons--------------Shield 162---------------Kanabo 142
Totals-----------------------------------527------------------------473

In short-range weapons the Samurai katana was tested against the Spartan's short sword, the Xiphos. Footage of the tests for both from previous episodes was reviewed. The edge was given to the katana for slicing through two pigs, while the xiphos barely got through one. The katana also had a length advantage over the xiphos.
In mid-range weapons the Samurai's Naginata was pitted against a gel torso wearing a Spartan cuirass mounted on an "attack bot" to simulate an attacking Spartan. The Naginata failed to penetrate. The same attack bot was then outfitted with a Samurai cuirass and tested against the Spartan's Dory Spear, which not only failed to penetrate, but was severely bent in the process. Despite this, the weapons were declared even because neither could penetrate their enemy's armor.
In long-range weapons, both teams reviewed the footage of the Spartan's javelin and the Samurai's yumi. The javelin was deemed a weapon used against mass formations instead of a single enemy, while the Yumi had speed, killing power, and accuracy. The Yumi was unanimously (including the Spartan expert) given the edge because of its high speed and lethal accuracy.
For special weapons, the kanabo and the Spartan shield were pit against each other. While the kanabo used in the testing did fair structural damage to the Viking shield earlier on in season one, in this test it was demonstrated by Shigematsu instead of Chan with a side swing rather than an overhead strike. The Spartan shield was too solid for the kanabo to damage and was unharmed except for a few dents. The Spartan sheild however was shown to be just as powerful a weapon as ever and therefore given the edge.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Mark »

Modern match results

Spetsnaz Kills IRA Kills
Close Range-----------Makarov Pistol 20-------------Webley Revolver ---------8
Mid Range-------------Saiga Shotgun 92--------------LPO-50 Flamethrower---11
Long Range -----------AK74 Carbine --472-------------AR-15 ArmaLite--------175
Dragonov Rifle-120-------------HK G3 Sniper Rifle------47
Special Weapons------Ballistic Knife-----6--------------Slingshot-----------------3
Explosive Weapons---RGD-5 Grenade---7--------------Nail Bomb 20
Totals----------------------------717--------------------------------264


For long range automatic rifles, the footage of season one reviewed the AR-15 Armlite and AK-74 Carbine. It was agreed that the Armlite was the more accurate weapon, but the AK-74 was the more durable weapon; hence, the result was a draw.
For mid range weaponry, footage for season one reviewed the IRA's LPO-50 Flamethrower against the Spetsnaz's Saiga Shotgun. While the Saiga was quick and deadly, the LPO-50 Flamethrower brought a psychological advantage. Additionally, burn injuries were deemed to be far worse than gun shot wounds, giving the IRA the edge.
For long range sniper rifles, the IRA's the HK G3 was paired against the Dragonov. While both weapons had high kill ratios, the Dragonov was deemed faster and more accurate in terms of execution and given the edge.
For special weapons, season one footage reviewed the IRA's sling shot and Spetsnaz's ballistic knife. The ballistic knife was determined as having the advantage due to the weapon's killing power.
For explosives, the nail bomb and RGD-5 Grenade were reviewed from the season one footage. While the RGD-5 was powerful at a wide range, the Nail Bomb (despite being an improvised weapon) was given the advantage due to the high killing power of its shrapnel.
For short range weapons, the Makarov was pitted against the IRA's side arm, the Webley Revolver. Despite the Webley being a more powerful pistol, the Makarov was given the advantage due to the pistol carrying more ammo than the six bullets in the Webley.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Mark »

By the way, the above posting info came from wiki :wink:
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Atekimogus »

This looked interesting and so I searched and found a bit of the episode with the spartan vs samurai on youtube and....I am the only one who found all this a bit ridiculous? The spartan for instance fought more like a guy from 300 than an actual spartan and I do doubt he was wearing a 60 pound bronze armour.

Also I am not sure if you can really measure a warrior trained to fight in a coherent unit in single combat against a samurai. But I admit I haven't seen the whole episode, so maybe I missed the more reasonable looking stuff.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Mikey »

Mark wrote:I just had a nice thought. If you hit that Samurai armor with say.....a battle axe, it may not penetrate, but you'd have all kinds of ruptured organs.
I wrote:When we say it would have been ineffective against a European sword, that's because of the type of attack - a heavy, chopping blow. The impact of such an attack would come right through the scales of samurai armor, even if the cutting edge didn't penetrate. The sharpness and penetration of European medieval swords is generally greatly overrated anyway.
A battle axe was the same type of attack. Sailing limbs may be more movei-friendly, but the real damage was done by force of impact.
Mark wrote:In short-range weapons the Samurai katana was tested against the Spartan's short sword, the Xiphos. Footage of the tests for both from previous episodes was reviewed. The edge was given to the katana for slicing through two pigs, while the xiphos barely got through one. The katana also had a length advantage over the xiphos.
This is ludicrous. Hellenic and Hellenistic swords of the time were made for stabbing, not slicing. Some may have been able to perform an adequate chopping attack, but the katana is single-edged and curved, like a saber, for cutting. A short, straight sword doesn't spend enough time in a cut to compare to a sword designed for cutting. To be fair, a katana qould have failed miserably if tested against the xiphos by using the Greek method of sword attack - it's hard to stab with a sword when it's got no point.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Deepcrush »

Atekimogus wrote:This looked interesting and so I searched and found a bit of the episode with the spartan vs samurai on youtube and....I am the only one who found all this a bit ridiculous? The spartan for instance fought more like a guy from 300 than an actual spartan and I do doubt he was wearing a 60 pound bronze armour.
Agreed, whoever the spartan was this time around didn't seem to comfortable with the role. He moved slowly and without the balance a trained warrior would have had.
Atekimogus wrote:Also I am not sure if you can really measure a warrior trained to fight in a coherent unit in single combat against a samurai. But I admit I haven't seen the whole episode, so maybe I missed the more reasonable looking stuff.
Spartans weren't just trained to fight as a unit. They were very highly skilled solo fighters.
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Re: Weapons and Warfare

Post by Atekimogus »

Deepcrush wrote: Spartans weren't just trained to fight as a unit. They were very highly skilled solo fighters.
Well I wasn't aware of that. When thinking of highly skilled pre-gunpowder warriors one would naturally think of knights and samurai, those where mighty solo fighters altough sometimes with rather poor discipline (with numerous instances of glory-hungry knights charging to their death against orders during the 100 year war).

Thinking of spartan hoplites I would rather picture highly disciplined soldiers (not warriors) who are only really effective in their unit since the heavy armor, the overly large shield and long spear are not really designed for one on one fights.

Now I am by no means an expert but to me it is like comparing one british longbowmen to one knight and asking which one is deadlier. It is pretty pointless since one unit is just not designed to fight on its own but is extremly deadly en masse.

The hoplite fought as a phalanx and got slaughtered in melee (like the battle of pydna) so for a meaningful comparison they should deploy them in a setting they were designed to fight in, but then simulating how a 10000 men strong phalanx would have fared against a similar size samurai force is probably to much of a stretch since then you would have to factor in terrain, tactics etc. .

That said, if one insists on comparing pre-gunpowder fighters one on one I am not sure I would dare to declare a clear winner, be it knight, samurai, spartan, viking etc. to much would depend on the individual imho.
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