Killing Pandora

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tholian_Avenger » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:05 am

Tyyr wrote:You have just been appointed as Colonel Quarith's successor by RDN. The Pandora mining operation is too valuable to the company to lose and you have been told to reclaim it for the company by any means necessary. They'll handle the PR fallout of however you choose to deal with the situation but get that mine back in operation, NOW. They'd prefer you not do anything that the bleeding hearts could label as "genocide" but for $1.4 trillion a year gross they'll deal with it if they have to. Negotiation and diplomacy are out of your hands, your only job is the military response if it comes to that.

Scenario one, you are nine months out from Pandora. The crew of the starship has woken you early to notify you of the situation and give you a chance to plan your response. Unfortunately all you have at your immediate disposal is the crew that was being transferred, a mixed bag of miners, roughnecks, technicians, and mercenaries, and the gear they brought wit them. How do you take the mine back or can you even do it?

Scenario two, you are currently on Earth and studying to ship out to Pandora when you get the news. You've got nine months before the ship launches so in that time you've got to recruit and train any personnel you need as well as choose and procure any supplies you need. The sky's the limit on what you can take, the mass is not. Pick and choose your gear carefully to squeeze it in under the 350 ton limit. If you choose you can request for some of that tonnage to be spent on more cryosleep chambers at half a ton per man.

So, how do you get the mine back and prevent the furries from over running it again?


If we can cross the stars we can strap an engine onto a nearby asteroid or comet. They can live on the periphery, selling us wares and trinkets, but if they cross the perimeter their entire biosphere dies and when the ashes settle we will probably have churned up a lot of ore from the interior of the crust to the surface anyways. Also, they should probably have some restrictions placed on them like no technology, the leadership must be handed over for summary execution. Their government must submit to company policy. There is no way we won't be putting a government in over them. I would also make it mandatory for registration at birth, any freebirthers are enemy combatants. Any support for freebirthing nationalism gets a chunk of rock deorbited somewhere on the planet. Et cetera.


Or we could reference the ship's library and begin testing nerve agents and defoliants if we wanted to be expensive and gruesome about the matter. But as I said before, such is just inhumane and wasteful.



Personally, I would make sure that the planet gets the rock dropped on it in the end so it can be a clean slate for the introduced Earth biosphere Jr. I darn sure don't want anything like that ecological mess getting loose in a Human world.
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Reliant121 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:35 pm

The point is not whether it is technically viable, but whether it is economically viable. This isn't a military with unlimited money, they have a budget and have to stick to it. Is it actually worth it?

Besides, what right does humanity have to force an atmospheric placement on a planet that is NOT ours.
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tsukiyumi » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:21 pm

Reliant121 wrote:...Besides, what right does humanity have to force an atmospheric placement on a planet that is NOT ours.


Well, clearly because we're superior to them. :roll:
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tholian_Avenger » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:32 pm

Reliant121 wrote:The point is not whether it is technically viable, but whether it is economically viable. This isn't a military with unlimited money, they have a budget and have to stick to it.

This company routinely crosses light years, has set up a manned mining installation in a hazardous environment and can make enough of a revenue to maintain such activities. Honestly, changing the trajectories of a few Near Pandora Objects wouldn't be too difficult.

Besides, what right does humanity have to force an atmospheric placement on a planet that is NOT ours.

Well, really, that wasn't a point taken into consideration with the OP. But...
"It is important for the human race to spread out into space for the survival of the species," Hawking said. "Life on Earth is at the ever-increasing risk of being wiped out"
Pandora could be terraformed and we are always in need of new places to hide from the Grim Reaper.

I would like to say that all things should live in harmony and oneness but those critters are ALIEN and life adapts. It would be very unpleasant for us should that sort of ecosystem take hold on any planet that Humans live on. A plant is a plant but we routinely dismiss a "weed" into extinction but expend great efforts at cultivating fruits. It is the same.

If Pandora is anywhere close to Sol, we run the risk of eventual competition with the Navi for living room. So that is a horrid gamble: that we can coexist and build off of each other to better our (Human) chances of survival or that we will be eventually in competition with a space fairing Navi for living room and resources. The way I described removes the agonizing "what if", it also loses a host of inventions which we might have gleaned from the Navi.

Second Best = First Dead . . . Ask the Neanderthals.

Is it actually worth it?

This company routinely crosses light years, has set up a manned mining installation in a hazardous environment, normally puts up with hostile wildlife, and still makes a revenue of fourteen hundred billion dollars processing one of the most precious metals in the universe. Financially, yes.


It is a sad thing really, we should hope that sentient life is very rare amongst the stars of this galaxy. At least our crimes will be fewer in number if we ever leave this rock.
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Lighthawk » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:03 pm

Why bother with towing a rock into orbit and dropping it? The ships run off anti-matter, which is produced at pandora to refuel for the journey home. If you're really going to take the "nuke them to ash" path, just drop some of that stuff on them. Much easier than finding a big enough space rock, flying out to it, attaching it to the ship, calculating a trajectory, accelerating it to the correct path and speed, detaching the ship without screwing up anything, and then getting out of the way and waiting for it hit.
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby stitch626 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:59 pm

Honestly, changing the trajectories of a few Near Pandora Objects wouldn't be too difficult.

Unless there are no objects near enough for it to be practical.

These ships carry just enough fuel to get to Pandora (and maybe back, but I think they refuel there, either way they can't waste it). Its not like they can go on a random flight to trap on rockets to an asteroid and then not make it home. Thats not realistic.
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tholian_Avenger » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:13 pm

Lighthawk wrote:Why bother with towing a rock into orbit and dropping it? The ships run off anti-matter . . . .

Antimatter... yikes. Do you go hunting with rocket launchers?


stitch626 wrote: Its not like they can go on a random flight to trap on rockets to an asteroid and then not make it home. Thats not realistic.

What about that movie is?

Killing Pandora Scenario 1: En route, 9 months away word comes that the ground base has been captured in a war waged by the planetary biosphere. If you don't have enough fuel to maneuver and must rely upon the ground base to refuel then you are going to have to rain down death somehow (with whatever someone else has already posted here) upon the locals to create a clear landing zone.

Or

Try your hand at subterfuge. Get them to agree to let you back into the fuel factory and then find something to hold them hostage with. But if your established presence already had its butt kicked, what good will your itty bitty resupply ship do in field combat? Use what is to your advantage: space. Call for a few rock pushers to be sent out as soon as possible.

Unless there are no objects near enough for it to be practical.

Killing Pandora Scenario 2:
Prior to mission launch (that means 5 years at the min), word comes that the ground base has been captured in a war waged by the planetary biosphere. If it is at all possible, load up enough fuel and parts so that you can use space (a place the Navi can't reach) to your advantage. My suggestion is to get some big rocks in Pandora's system and park them in orbit.

But to be realistic the distance between the Earth and the Kuiper Belt is 42 AU. The distance between Sol and Alpha Centauri A is 276,354 AU (4.37LY * 63,240 AU per LY). So the distance between a Kuiper like belt and Pandora is going to be in the hundredths of a percent of the total trip. I think some kind of rock could be found.


Within the confines of the OP, we are going to take back the ground base and continue the operations that the Pandora Biosphere went to war to stop. You either negotiate and explain how sorry you are (which I doubt will work), negotiate until you can force them away from the ground base and do something to to frighten the natives to their marrow, counter attack until they surrender, or wipe them out.

Just remember, they must have a lasting fear which they have no way of overcoming and you are probably going to have to demonstrate it to them once or twice.
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Lighthawk » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:39 pm

Tholian_Avenger wrote:
Lighthawk wrote:Why bother with towing a rock into orbit and dropping it? The ships run off anti-matter . . . .

Antimatter... yikes. Do you go hunting with rocket launchers?


Yeah, cause dropping a huge rock from orbit is a tickle.
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tholian_Avenger » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:08 am

Well, I figure that several large dirty snowballs will not produce the same amount of radioactivity that anti-matter would. Since Anti-matter is also the fuel used for interstellar flight, I am reluctant to use it on such a minor threat as the Navi.

But, uhm, how would you deal with the two scenarios presented in the OP?
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Lighthawk » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:02 am

Tholian_Avenger wrote:Well, I figure that several large dirty snowballs will not produce the same amount of radioactivity that anti-matter would.


Eh, the mining equipment is remote controlled. Just so long as the base is out of the radiation zone or is properly shielded, no big deal.

Since Anti-matter is also the fuel used for interstellar flight, I am reluctant to use it on such a minor threat as the Navi.


And how much of the stuff do you think you'd burn puttering around the solar system for a few months gathering up your dirty snowballs?

But, uhm, how would you deal with the two scenarios presented in the OP?


Negotiate. I'd find Jake and slap it into his head the situation he and the na'vi are in. They won a very costly battle by very minor margine against a relatively weak force of humans. If the RDA puts the effort and money into it, they could easily crush the na'vi, and possibly obliderate all life on the planet. After that, offer to be reasonable. We'll make efforts to keep the mining enviromentally friendly, if the na'vi leave us alone. If they want, I'd offer to let the na'vi come examine the dig sites, and make an effort to explain and show them the steps we were taking to minimize the damage. I would do everything reasonably possible to let the na'vi feel they had some control and influence on things, keep them content if not exactly happy. I would however make sure they understood that the mining will happen, or I will bring down the fire.
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tholian_Avenger » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:53 am

Lighthawk wrote:
Tholian_Avenger wrote:Well, I figure that several large dirty snowballs will not produce the same amount of radioactivity that anti-matter would.

Eh, the mining equipment is remote controlled. Just so long as the base is out of the radiation zone or is properly shielded, no big deal.

I want people living on Pandora at some point in the future. If for instance a coronal mass ejection hits Earth, Pandora would be nice. So what kind of effects would a nuclear war have on the planet?

Negotiate. I'd find Jake and slap it into his head the situation he and the na'vi are in. They won a very costly battle by very minor margine against a relatively weak force of humans. If the RDA puts the effort and money into it, they could easily crush the na'vi, and possibly obliderate all life on the planet. After that, offer to be reasonable. We'll make efforts to keep the mining enviromentally friendly, if the na'vi leave us alone. If they want, I'd offer to let the na'vi come examine the dig sites, and make an effort to explain and show them the steps we were taking to minimize the damage. I would do everything reasonably possible to let the na'vi feel they had some control and influence on things, keep them content if not exactly happy. I would however make sure they understood that the mining will happen, or I will bring down the fire.

You are going to immediately risk more Human lives, make the company ship out an army to back up your threat, reduce profitability of the mining process, and then also risk the future of Humanity?

Okay.

Since Anti-matter is also the fuel used for interstellar flight, I am reluctant to use it on such a minor threat as the Navi.


And how much of the stuff do you think you'd burn puttering around the solar system for a few months gathering up your dirty snowballs?

IIRC, there are nuclear engines on the ship for insystem. The antimatter is just for interstellar travel.


By the way, do you play Magic the Gathering much?
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Lighthawk » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:07 am

Tholian_Avenger wrote:I want people living on Pandora at some point in the future. If for instance a coronal mass ejection hits Earth, Pandora would be nice.


Well hey, that's super, but totally irrelevant. My job in this scenerio is to get the mine running again, worrying about providing humanity with a fallout shelter if the worst happens is outside of my scope of employment.

So what kind of effects would a nuclear war have on the planet?


Nuclear war? I'm not planning on dropping thousands of megatons worth of anti-matter all around the globe. That'd be ludicris overkill, and a complete waste. I plan to use (reletively) small blasts to drive home a point.

Consider Japan in WWII, because that's about how far things are ever likely to go. Yeah, some of the Japanese are still dealing with the radiation results of the nukes we hit them with, but it certainly hasn't crippled them as a people or a nation now has it? And the rest of the world has kept going just fine.

I warn the Na'vi, "lets get along, or bad things happen." If they won't cooperate, I drop a small chunk of anti-matter somewhere non-vital but visible, and only a few kilotons worth. The results of that will likely get their attention, hard. I tell them I can keep doing that, and can make it even bigger and the next one will be centered somewhere more important.

Let the talks begin.

You are going to immediately risk more Human lives


There is no non-risk scenerio here. I assume however you must have meant that my plan had some unacceptable risk to human life, though I fail to see it.

, make the company ship out an army to back up your threat,


Oh? Where did I say anything about an army?

reduce profitability of the mining process,


The mining at this point has stopped entirely, I don't think I could reduce it below zero. Anything that gets the mining going again is going to be an increase in the mining profit.

and then also risk the future of Humanity?


Again, not part of my job, even if it was true, which it isn't. As I said, I'm not planning on irradiating every square inch of the planet or dropping a bomb big enough to destroy the entire biosphere.

And you know what, even if I did, I doubt it would impact humanity's future in the Avatar universe.

1) Jake stated in his speech to the Na'vi something along the effects of "There's no green on their world, they killed their mother." Seems we've already destroyed the enviroment on earth, but the human race is still going. So while an asteroid impact would suck for those in the blast zone, I doubt it would end life across the rest of the planet. If we've destroyed the enviroment but are still able to feed the population, we must be using some kind of farming method that is self contained.
2) This line that is present in one version or another on most of the various wikis I've seen, from the page on the AMP suit: "The suit is used extensively on the Moon and Mars colonies." Seems humanity is already living places other than earth, and places a hell of a lot closer and easier to get to.



IIRC, there are nuclear engines on the ship for insystem. The antimatter is just for interstellar travel.


The ship has one fusion PME (Planetary Maneuvering Engine.) Now granted all we have to go off is the name, but planetary maneuvering takes place on a much smaller scale than interplanetary. Now perhaps the engine is powerful enough to get the ship around the system, but on what kind of time frame? However much using anti-matter as a weapon might cost, I'd be willing to bet it'd end up costing the RDA a lot less than the time that would be wasted hunting down asteroids.

By the way, do you play Magic the Gathering much?


No...never. Why?
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby sunnyside » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:35 am

So I've actually seen the movie now. I'd highly advise seeing it in a 3D theatre. This is one of the times the ticket is worth it. Watching it at home on a DVD just isn't remotely the same thing. While the rhetoric was a little annoying, and the story completely predictable, I actually liked the movie. And in a number of ways it was more balanced and less silly than I'd feared.

Lighthawk wrote:1) Jake stated in his speech to the Na'vi something along the effects of "There's no green on their world, they killed their mother." Seems we've already destroyed the enviroment on earth, but the human race is still going. So while an asteroid impact would suck for those in the blast zone, I doubt it would end life across the rest of the planet. If we've destroyed the enviroment but are still able to feed the population, we must be using some kind of farming method that is self contained.


He does say that. But from the dialogue he was fighting in jungles back on earth. I presume he's refering to a city or somesuch.

Also regarding the "landing pads will be rigged" comments, the shuttle they use has VTOL capability. And the planet has plains and clearings. You could set down any number of places.


Anyway getting the operation going might actually not be that hard. The primary point of contention, getting the Na'vi to move off the ore deposits, is already resolved most likely, since presumably they'd choose to relocated to some other large tree as that's what all the tribes seem to do. In any case I doubt they'd select an ashen pit for a home.

The only issue then is keeping the Na'vi from attacking. Convincing them that it isn't profitable to colonize once the ore is depleted might cut it. Especially since they prize that one special tree so much, it might be easy to get them to cut a deal where they let us mine and we leave them alone.

Also while the Na'vi aren't interested in money, the humans might be. If only lobby *cough* buy politicians *cough* for Pandora rights.
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tholian_Avenger » Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:34 pm

Lighthawk wrote:
Tholian_Avenger wrote:I want people living on Pandora at some point in the future. If for instance a coronal mass ejection hits Earth, Pandora would be nice.


Well hey, that's super, but totally irrelevant. My job in this scenerio is to get the mine running again, worrying about providing humanity with a fallout shelter if the worst happens is outside of my scope of employment.

You are completely right. Sorry, for over stepping the OP's request.

So what kind of effects would a nuclear war have on the planet?

Nuclear war? I'm not planning on dropping thousands of megatons worth of anti-matter all around the globe.

I am not sure you would need even a ton of antimatter to devastate a Biosphere.

You are going to immediately risk more Human lives

There is no non-risk scenerio here. I assume however you must have meant that my plan had some unacceptable risk to human life, though I fail to see it.

By bringing in more Humans than needed into an insecure environment. That is all.

, make the company ship out an army to back up your threat,

Oh? Where did I say anything about an army?

How do you intend to guard your compound longterm? Just threaten to drop an antimatter container on some part of the planet if they attack? {these are questions, not offenses}

reduce profitability of the mining process,

The mining at this point has stopped entirely, I don't think I could reduce it below zero. Anything that gets the mining going again is going to be an increase in the mining profit.

By making the mining enviromentally friendly, minimizing the damage, and allowing inspections you would slow down and decrease the amount of ore which can be recovered. I imagine that mountain top removal would not have been developed if it was not profitable.

2) This line that is present in one version or another on most of the various wikis I've seen, from the page on the AMP suit: "The suit is used extensively on the Moon and Mars colonies." Seems humanity is already living places other than earth, and places a hell of a lot closer and easier to get to.

Well. my point was to get out of the Solar System.

By the way, do you play Magic the Gathering much?

No...never. Why?

Fond memories of childhood. I think the Lighthawk was Uzra's airship and I think your avatar is one of the undead cyborg people. I can't recall their name.
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Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Aaron » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:29 pm

Thats a Tech-Priest from WH40K.
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