Killing Pandora

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby IanKennedy » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:46 pm

You are missing a massive item. At the end of the film the Na'vi and the humans that are staying with them are in control of the compound. They have access to everything the humans have there. Including the machine that builds all the human technology. It's an automated production facility. They have 9 months to do what they like with it. Unless Jake and the other humans are complete morons you will not be able to even get into the compound when you arrive, let alone control who can and can't get into the facility. As I said if it were me I would mine the whole place so you couldn't even land without dying. Armed with a machine that can automatically build weapons and flying machines you are going to find it difficult coming out of orbit without being shot down. Plus they have access to at least one satellite that can see the planet from above.

Sure you could, with the appropriate equipment, launch an attack from orbit, but I think that's going to have to wait for a new ship directly sent from earth with that in mind.
email, ergo spam
User avatar
IanKennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4319
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Sionnach Glic » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:01 pm

IanKennedy wrote:You are missing a massive item. At the end of the film the Na'vi and the humans that are staying with them are in control of the compound.


Are they going to stay there, however? I imagine that the Na'vi would return to their jungle settlements. The scientists may decide to live there (do they have their own facility elsewhere, or were they always working out of the compound?), but they're of no real threat and can just be thrown out if they refuse to leave.

IanKennedy wrote:They have access to everything the humans have there.


Access to =/= ability to use.

IanKennedy wrote:Including the machine that builds all the human technology. It's an automated production facility. They have 9 months to do what they like with it


I think I pointed out the trouble with using the Replicator thing in the main Avatar thread. Put simply, it's effectively useless to them, even with the scientists around.

For a more in-depth reason, read on.
First, we're assuming that the scientsts that are loyal to the Na'vi actually know how to work the factory. This is most certainly not a given.

Secondly, this machine will require a power source. Do the scientists know how to properly operate and maintain this power source within safe limits? I have my doubts.

Thirdly, do the scientists know how to maintain the factory machinery itself? Again, I'm betting on no. Unless there happens to be a contingent of engineers amongst them, one broken screw means the entire thing stops.

Fourthly, this machine undoubtedly requires material to be input into it before it can build anything. The Na'vi have no mining system, and the human mines will have been abandoned. Again, I can't imagine these scientists being much use in running mines. As I doubt there are lumps of metal just lying around on the surface, the Na'vi would have nothing to use in the machine.

Fifthly, even if they do get it working (by no means a certainty), what do they get? Tanks, weapons and armour. All designed for use by a race half their size. Not a great help. The tanks and armour would be unusable, and I doubt the weapons would be much use either. They'd need to not only design new gear from scratch, but also figure out how to get the factory to start producing it. At best, they could arm their scientist companions. Not all that great an asset.

I'm sure that there are other problems, but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Quite simply, the factory isn't going to be that much use to them.

IanKennedy wrote:Unless Jake and the other humans are complete morons you will not be able to even get into the compound when you arrive, let alone control who can and can't get into the facility. As I said if it were me I would mine the whole place so you couldn't even land without dying.


I have my doubts that they'd even do such a thing in the first place. They know that the humans are coming back. They'd also be idiots not to realise that there's a very good chance that they're coming back with some serious firepower and knowledge that all life must be considered hostile. If the first thing these humans experience upon landing on Pandora is one of their shuttles going down in flames, there's a very good chance that the Na'vi will be introduced to high-altitude carpet bombing. Perhaps even nuclear weapons. Sully and the other humans would be idiots not to know that. They'd undoubtedly realise that their only chance of survival would be trying to deal peacefully with the humans that come later. It's either that, or it turns into a war of attrition as the Na'vi attack every human ship to land, taking greater and greater losses each time as the humans bring more and heavier weapons with each arriving ship. It'd be a war that the Na'vi could never win, and Jake has to realise that. Unless he'd rather all life on Pandora die over the space of a few decades, he's going to be looking for other solutions. A military solution simply isn't possible.

IanKennedy wrote:Plus they have access to at least one satellite that can see the planet from above.


And I'm unable to just bump the satalite out of orbit?

IanKennedy wrote:Sure you could, with the appropriate equipment, launch an attack from orbit, but I think that's going to have to wait for a new ship directly sent from earth with that in mind.


I wouldn't need to attack from orbit. Just from high altitude. Since we have shuttles capable of reaching escape velocity, we already have that capability. Just load the shuttles full of explosives and carpet-bomb the area surrounding the compound. Preferably with something flammable that will start a nice big fire and spread.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
User avatar
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby stitch626 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:23 am

In reference to the "they may not be able to use the stuff" part, one of the mechanic/computer guys was loyal to Jake and crew. He knew the whole system and had been working there from the beginning.
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
User avatar
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 9516
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: Romulus

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Sionnach Glic » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:22 pm

Can he run the entire place himself? There's a difference between a mechanic and an operator.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
User avatar
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby stitch626 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:26 pm

Not sure... may be an excuse to go see it again.
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
User avatar
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 9516
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: Romulus

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tyyr » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:28 pm

I'm just about certain that he was the computer tech for the Avatar program, in charge of the technical side of it. There's no reason to assume he'd have any idea how to run the manufacturing plant.
User avatar
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Sionnach Glic » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:53 pm

Well, that settles that then. The factory will be mostly useless to the Na'vi and their allies.

So what's this factory capable of producing? Does it just construct individual components that are then fitted together outside the machine, or is it capable of making (for example) a whole helicopter within itself? What are the largest objects it would be able to construct? Is it capable of making chemical compounds?
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
User avatar
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tyyr » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:04 pm

You might look up the official wiki. It would have the answers, maybe, you're looking for. From the movie itself I don't think we know enough to say one way or another. Given the nature of the operation on Pandora I'd imagine that any work the human's do would be limited to maybe fitting together large assemblies.
User avatar
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Sionnach Glic » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:42 pm

I tend to not trust Wikis for obvious reasons. These movie wikis tend to have about 90% of their content just made up by the fans, so I'll stick with what we see in the movie for now.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
User avatar
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tyyr » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:46 pm

I think this one was done by the film company as a promotional tool for it. I think. Frankly I haven't gotten a chance yet to really look through it.
User avatar
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby sunnyside » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:03 pm

I think you're spinning things as far to useless to the Navi. I don't see how you figure they couldn't use a human rifle. At most they might have to remove the trigger guard, and I doubt they'd have to do that. The grip might not be long enough. But concealed carry guns with grips too small to get all your fingers on are all the rage at the moment in real life. It isn't that big a deal.

Heavy weapons could be removed and mounted on their critters similar to how Krootox operate.

It's a horrible assumption that people couldn't figure out how to use the factory. While it's possible that they password protected everything such that only the highest levels could operate it, and restricted access to the maintenence and operation manuals, I think a better example of how something like that would work is the unencrypted signals modern day UAVs put out. Most likely the manuals are readily accessable to the lowest tech and access generally unrestricted. The logistics just aren't worth the hassel. Especially given that a cyber attack would not have been considered even a remotely credible threat.

More relevant would be the sort of equipment it could produce, and whether they would choose to utilize it and whether they would mine their own resources.

Given that they know more humans are coming, they'd have a strong incentive to do so. Though that isn't a guarantee they wouldn't be blinded by arrogance after their victory.

Bombing from above and defoliation could be effective if the Na'vi are dependent on that one specific tree you see in the promos. Otherwise 350 tons doesn't actually go that far. That's enough ordenance for one, smaller, WWII air raid on a facility. If the Na'vi don't conveniently all stand close together it won't get you much.

My take would be to bring nukes, as they're about all you can bring that has the energy density to be decisive. However my understanding is that the attacks were by a private company. So they might not have access to nukes.

Without those I'd probably try and scout the base. If I can set up shop Rochey's plan is a fine one. If the thing is occupied and armed I'd probably have to land somewhere far far away from the Na'vi and try to set up a base. Maybe on something highly defensible like those floating mountains.

After that I'd try and develop a bioweapon. Probably finding some native disease that afflicts the plant life and weaponize it to spread much faster and be much more devestating.

If I'm worried about public opinion I cover it up and try to make it look like a natural mutation.
User avatar
sunnyside
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 2426
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tyyr » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:12 pm

They have access to sufficient quantities of anti-matter to propel a starship up to 70% the speed of light. Telling them can't have nukes is utterly pointless.
User avatar
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby sunnyside » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:48 am

Tyyr wrote:They have access to sufficient quantities of anti-matter to propel a starship up to 70% the speed of light. Telling them can't have nukes is utterly pointless.


Uh. In that case did they do some handwavium technobable as to why they couldn't use some of that to clear out the area? Something like "any gamma radiation and all the unobtanium turns into notworthsh*tite!"

The reason I haven't seen the movie is because you could tell the entire plot, including the ending, and probably a lot about the quality of dialogue, just from seeing the trailer and knowing the director. The enjoyment of the movie than comes down to the storytelling, visuals, and actions. Which I figured would be spoiled by having the operation run by complete and utter retards and soldiers that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from 50 feet with and entire case of ammo. That utterly destroys suspension of dispelief and pisses me off.

With the talk here of the Na'vi getting their butts actually kicked for a while and the severe limitations on manpower and tons of gear things were looking more interesting.

But I think it might have just gotten spoiled again....
User avatar
sunnyside
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 2426
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby stitch626 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:20 pm

Tyyr wrote:They have access to sufficient quantities of anti-matter to propel a starship up to 70% the speed of light. Telling them can't have nukes is utterly pointless.

Perhaps government policies would prevent their use of nukes? Just a guess.
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
User avatar
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 9516
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: Romulus

Re: Killing Pandora

Postby Tyyr » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:13 am

stitch626 wrote:Perhaps government policies would prevent their use of nukes? Just a guess.

Nukes are firecrackers next to anti-matter.
Telling a guy he can have literally tons of antimatter for his starship but he can't take a couple nukes with him is like telling a guy on an M1A2 Abrams he gets no ammo for his machine gun but he can have all the 120mm cannon ammo he wants and expecting that to keep him from damaging anything. If you're letting someone carry around the quantities of anti-matter necessary to propel a ship this size to 70% the speed of light telling them they can't have nukes is ridiculous. Though actually given how mass limited these starships are they'd probably be better off just using anti-matter weapons and complying with an stupid government rule banning the use of nukes.
User avatar
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

PreviousNext

Return to Science, Philosophy and Theology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests