IanKennedy wrote:No, that's my point they have human scientists on their side.
And what do they know about chemical warfare? Probably very little. I have my doubts that they could accurately identify a specific chemical, even if they were allowed into the compound. Also, the chemicals would be coming on the ship just leaving Earth, giving us ~six years to show the natives that we mean them no harm. Once that's done, the ship arriving in orbit would be just one of many that had arrived previousl, and would be given no greater thought than any of the others. And since the chemicals would be offloaded on about the same day they were going to be used, there's very ltitle chance of them being discovered. Not in time for the Na'vi to do anything about it, anyway.
IanKennedy wrote:What you going to call the cops or send in a lawyer to serve them papers? The point is that they stayed to help the Na'vi because they didn't like what the RDA where doing. They are on the side of the Na'vi.
All the more reason that they should be barred from RDA land. Tell them to leave. If they don't, point out they're trespassing. If they still refuse to leave, have them thrown out.
IanKennedy wrote:He was the one that organized the battle that killed all the humans the first time around. I don't think he'll have a problem with doing that again. Especially if he thinks there's anything shady going on. He's also a trained soldier used to fighting in jungles. The chief of security was even impressed by his experience.
Admittedly I haven't seen the movie yet, but it's my understanding that the battle actually resulted in the Na'vi getting their collective arses handed to them. Correct? From what I've heard the Na'vi were only saved by Deus Ex Eywa when all fauna unexpectedly began attacking them.
In any case, it's a matter of tall strong aliens with spears against guys with guns. If it does come to another war (which it shouldn't) then simply taking a pre-prepared defensive position (like the compound) and holding the attackers off at along range would be adequate. If the entire situation goes FUBAR, hop on the shuttles, retreat to the ship in orbit and wait for reinforcements to arrive.
And why wouldn't Sully have a problem with killing off more of his own (sorta) species? Again, I've not seen the movie, but I have my doubts that he's a blood-thirsty psycho out to kill any humans that come near Pandora. Particularly not if they seem peaceful.
IanKennedy wrote:But it's not like the days of the British empire were you are up against natives, you've got one of your own leading the whole of the Na'vi 'nation'. He was in on the first deal and will spot your ploy easily.
If the Easter Rising in 1916 had been led by a former British general, it still wouldn't have gone much further than it did in reality. And in that instance both sides were using the same weapons (well, with the exception of the
Helga).
The simple fact remains that he's leading oversized American Indians. They only won round one by having everything on the planet giving them a hand. He knows about our weapons and technology, yes, but that's only so much of a help when their forces are easily outclassed and outgunned. The only advantage they have is numbers and physical superiority (which is a non-issue if they're dead before reaching their target). Also, the guy's a corporal. Not a master strategist. He knows tactics, not how to fight a war.
Perhaps more importantly, how is he going to spot our ploy? We won't have the chemicals arriving in Scenario 1 for several years. We will literaly
be the meagre force of mostly civilians we're making ourselves out to be. Hell, we can invite him to come on over and inspect our forces if he wants. If he could be persuaded that RDA considers military action far too costly to continue and are instead interested in a peaceful sollution to the conflict (and I see no reason why he couldn't be persuaded) then he's not going to have us all exterminated.
And in the unlikely event that he
does, then we just retreat to orbit, wait for the chemical ship to show up and gas them from the safety of orbit. Simples.
IanKennedy wrote:If you can get in there. They have access to RDA production facility and scientists to be able to work it. They could build anything they want (within the limits of the machine).
I think I pointed out the trouble with using the Replicator thing in the main Avatar thread. Put simply, it's effectively useless to them, even with the scientists around.
For a more in-depth reason, read on.
First, we're assuming that the scientsts that are loyal to the Na'vi actually know how to work the factory. This is most certainly not a given.
Secondly, this machine will require a power source. Do the scientists know how to properly operate and maintain this power source within safe limits? I have my doubts.
Thirdly, do the scientists know how to maintain the factory machinery itself? Again, I'm betting on no. Unless there happens to be a contingent of engineers amongst them, one broken screw means the entire thing stops.
Fourthly, this machine undoubtedly requires material to be input into it before it can build anything. The Na'vi have no mining system, and the human mines will have been abandoned. Again, I can't imagine these scientists being much use in running mines. As I doubt there are lumps of metal just lying around on the surface, the Na'vi would have nothing to use in the machine.
Fifthly, even if they do get it working (by no means a certainty), what do they get? Tanks, weapons and armour. All designed for use by a race half their size. Not a great help. The tanks and armour would be unusable, and I doubt the weapons would be much use either. They'd need to not only design new gear from scratch, but also figure out how to get the factory to start producing it. At best, they could arm their scientist companions. Not all that great an asset.
I'm sure that there are other problems, but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Quite simply, the factory isn't going to be that much use to them.
I'd actually forgotten about the presence of the factory. It actually helps me quite a lot. With it, I can easily construct whatever we don't have. Weapons, vehicles, etc. I can quickly have enough weapons made to arm everyone under my command (civilians would be given training by the mercs, obviously). This massively multiplies my available forces if the Na'vi ever do attack, greatly increasing our chances of survival. Constructing flamethrowers and appropriate vehicles would also let us quickly clear out the jungle from around the complex.
IanKennedy wrote:They have the scientists remember.
I did remember. Hence why I said "anyone left on Pandora". Do you really think a bunch of scientists are going to have access codes to a military system and the programming knowledge to make it do what they want? I doubt the guys in charge were just handing out the code to such an important part of their survival to anyone that happened to walk past their office at the right time.
IanKennedy wrote:Go in thinking that and you're going to be slaughtered. They have human help, it says that they were chosen to remain behind (and wanted to) at the end of the film.
Could you rig up an entire facility to explode? I sure as hell couldn't. And I doubt anyone else on this site could either. I see no reason to believe that a bunch of scientists (who would most likely be concerned with biological sciences for that matter) could set up such an elabourate trap that no one else could spot it.
And in any case, I'm not just going to land my entire force in the complex the moment we arrive. A small team will be sent down first to check the place out. Worst case scenario, I lose a half dozen or so guys.
Also, if the scientists or the Na'vi are trying to use the facility, they're not exactly going to rig it to blow up the moment someone sets foot inside.
IanKennedy wrote:No, not simple. If I were there I would produce explosives (or use the ones they have for mining) and set out to mine every landing spot. Unless you are going to cut another clearing without landing you are not going to touch down without going boom.
And you or I could build a mine with enough force to down a ship capable of surviving re-entry? I think the far more likely result is that scientists begin spontaneously exploding across the planet. What mines they do manage to build will be poorly made and jury-rigged from mining charges (do they even use explosives for mining?). The mines would then be left exposed to the elements for several months before they become my problem. Most of them would probably be set off by animals passing by, and the rest would probably be rusted and fairly useless.
Also, I have my doubts that they'd even do such a thing in the first place. They know that the humans are coming back. They'd also be idiots not to realise that there's a very good chance that they're coming back with some serious firepower and knowledge that all life must be considered hostile. If the first thing these humans experience upon landing on Pandora is one of their shuttles going down in flames, there's a very good chance that the Na'vi will be introduced to high-altitude carpet bombing. Perhaps even nuclear weapons. Sully and the other humans would be idiots not to know that. They'd undoubtedly realise that their only chance of survival would be trying to deal peacefully with the humans that come later. It's either that, or it turns into a war of attrition as the Na'vi attack every human ship to land, taking greater and greater losses each time as the humans bring more and heavier weapons with each arriving ship. It'd be a war that the Na'vi could never win, and Jake has to realise that. Unless he'd rather all life on Pandora die over the space of a few decades, he's going to be looking for other solutions. A military solution simply isn't possible.
IanKennedy wrote:And unavailable to you, unless Jake and his human friends are morons.
Aye, it's possible they'll have sabotaged the available equipment. That's where the factory begins to shine.
Also, could you elabourate more no the scientists that are aiding the Na'vi? How many of them are there? A dozen or so? A few hundred? Do they have their own facility, or were they using the RDA base? Did they have their own ships?