www.ditl.org

Graham Kennedy wrote: That is the wider point. As I said earlier, I do not think Lucas or whoever intended to depict a sexual assault here. He intended to depict Leia wanting the kiss, but not wanting to admit it.

But that makes it worse, not better. Because what they're selling here is, as you said, kind of a rapist fantasy world in which women who say no repeatedly actually mean yes, and so it's okay to push the issue.

And yes, she responded to the kiss. But that doesn't make it okay! There are women who have orgasms whilst being raped - and men who claim that this means she secretly wanted it so it wasn't rape. Much the same argument is used by many to claim that it's a physical impossibility for a woman to rape a man, because any boner automatically denotes consent to any sex act with any woman.

And I'm not especially attacking this movie, here. I already pointed out a James Bond example which is far worse; Hollywood history is littered with such examples.

You might be overthinking it with today views of political correctness. In view of his character I don't think it was out of place. He is a scoundrel and a risk taker. Relationships are complicated and there are no guarantees. He felt there is something and pushed it.

He could have been wrong in which case, yes it would basically been...well at least questionable. Considering how it turned out in the long run I think it was retroactively justified. Knowing the character Leia I guess if she would have felt assaulted we would find Solo on the deck holding his smashed in balls, so....what's the big deal?

As for rape fantasies....sad as it is, it seems the "I say no but actually mean yes" fetish is much more popular with women as you would think, or how would you explain "Shades of Grey"?

I know it is. I've known several women who had the fantasy.

There are people who fantasise about being kidnapped, too. And people who fantasise about being murdered. In fact there's people who fantasise about pretty much anything you can think of.

And I'm perfectly fine with people having those fantasies, and even playing them out in safe consensual ways (apart from the murder one).

But that doesn't mean it's a good thing to depict women wanting to be... let's say "conquered"... as a normal part of seduction. I don't think anybody is going to watch that scene, or even the Bond scene, and rush out and rape somebody. But an awful lot of women do get harassed, by guys who don't even realise that what they've done is wrong. And I wonder how much the widespread dissemination of imagery like that in popular culture helps that process along.

Graham Kennedy wrote:
But that doesn't mean it's a good thing to depict women wanting to be... let's say "conquered"... as a normal part of seduction. I don't think anybody is going to watch that scene, or even the Bond scene, and rush out and rape somebody. But an awful lot of women do get harassed, by guys who don't even realise that what they've done is wrong. And I wonder how much the widespread dissemination of imagery like that in popular culture helps that process along.

I am not worried at that at all to be honest. I am more worried about this sort of political correctness prevents us from having "real" strong, badass women in media. Can you honestly give me an example of a modern depiction of a woman anywhere near as badass as in the 70s and 80s?

How does a Katniss Everdeen stick up to a Ripley or Princess Leia? Point is...it's not about the man being an asshole but about how the woman is being able to handle that sort of wrong behavior. Focusing on the wrongdoing of the man because women are poor, weak fragile flowers who need protection against this sort of behavior is exactly the wrong way going about this.

Leia was a kick-ass woman, I am not worried about her not being able to handle such a situation. Now THAT is a role-model for young girls. Ripley was sent to a prison planet full of horny men and managed to deal with the situation. What a woman.


What kind of role model do we have nowadays? They are either so completely over the top as being ridiculous (Marie-Sue Rey cough cough) or downright backwards in their depiction of women (Shades of Grey, Twilight). So those are more damaging imho than man being forward about their affections.

/thread

Graham Kennedy wrote:I know it is. I've known several women who had the fantasy.

There are people who fantasise about being kidnapped, too. And people who fantasise about being murdered. In fact there's people who fantasise about pretty much anything you can think of.

And I'm perfectly fine with people having those fantasies, and even playing them out in safe consensual ways (apart from the murder one).

But that doesn't mean it's a good thing to depict women wanting to be... let's say "conquered"... as a normal part of seduction. I don't think anybody is going to watch that scene, or even the Bond scene, and rush out and rape somebody. But an awful lot of women do get harassed, by guys who don't even realise that what they've done is wrong. And I wonder how much the widespread dissemination of imagery like that in popular culture helps that process along.

Just going to point this out.

There is a book and movie adaption on this very premise. The book I heard sold 50 million copies or something. Fifty Shades of Gray.

Yeah, I know. I've read it. It's fuck-awful, in part for exactly that reason.

Same here. Plenty of memes out there.

Twilight series had a creepy 100 year old sparkly vampire who attends high school who likes to watch girls sleep. But somehow those movies and books have tens of millions of fans.

Fuck if I know how a girl's brain works.