Han and Leia's first kiss.

[Graham Kennedy]

Okay, so I was listening to something and it mentioned this famous scene. I don't want to bias this so I'm just going to post it and ask for your opinion of it.

Thoughts?

[Nutso]

She doesn't only like nice men!

[Graham Kennedy]

Alright, so here's how I summarised that scene for somebody :

Han, he walks up behind Leia and puts his arms around her shoulders.
She physically shoves him off.
They talk. She insults him.
He takes her hand, without asking.
She tells him to stop, twice. He refuses.
He slowly backs her up against the wall. He notes that she is frightened - in fact, so afraid that she is physically trembling.
She tells him he isn't her type.
Despite being repeatedly told to stop and that she doesn't want this, he kisses her.
Bear in mind... she's a passenger on his ship, surrounded by enemies in a dangerous situation. He has total power over her life right now. Her continued existence literally depends on him. Pissing him off is not really an option.
He's interrupted and turns around.
She immediately runs away.

So... in what way is this possibly not a case of sexual assault?

[Nutso]

It's just that she kisses him too. Her head tilts up to make her lips meet his. And when we cut away to C-3P0 interrupting them, she clearly had her hand on the back of Han's head. When Han pulls away to acknowledge the stupid droid, she was still puckering her lips for half a second there, like she is lost in the moment.

An assault would be what Oliver Reed did to Kate Millet on After Dark. He slumps down next to her, a lesbian and a feminist and someone Olly nicknamed 'Big Tits,' grabs her head and kisses her on the cheek very much to her displeasure. It disgusts me enough that I'm not going to bother linking the video.

Bear in mind... she's a passenger on his ship, surrounded by enemies in a dangerous situation. He has total power over her life right now. Her continued existence literally depends on him. Pissing him off is not really an option.

If she had just met this guy, maybe. However this isn't just some guy, and she isn't just some passenger. These two were giving each other goo-goo eyes on Hoth. When Han didn't return before the base had to close doors, we saw Leia's face as the doors closed down. When Han got too high on his horse, she kissed Luke, a passionless kiss I might add, to prove that he ain't all that. Instead of abandoning the base when the Empire blew up the generators, Han ran back to make sure Leia got away safely. I don't think Leia feels like some hostage on Han's ship, and Han Solo isn't some sexual deviant who uses his position as Captain of the Millennium Falcon for sexual favors. As far as we know anyway.

To be fair to you, if I had read what you wrote, and had never seen "The Empire Strikes Back," I would agree that sounds like assault.

Frankly, Leia's kiss with Luke on Hoth is assault. He wasn't expecting it. She just grabs his face and shoves her lips onto his. She gave him no choice.

[IanKennedy]

He's a follower of James Bond... just a little bit rapey.

[Graham Kennedy]

It's just that she kisses him too. Her head tilts up to make her lips meet his.

So? Does that negate the fact that she told him "no" several times?

If she had just met this guy, maybe. However this isn't just some guy, and she isn't just some passenger. These two were giving each other goo-goo eyes on Hoth. When Han didn't return before the base had to close doors, we saw Leia's face as the doors closed down. When Han got too high on his horse, she kissed Luke, a passionless kiss I might add, to prove that he ain't all that. Instead of abandoning the base when the Empire blew up the generators, Han ran back to make sure Leia got away safely. I don't think Leia feels like some hostage on Han's ship, and Han Solo isn't some sexual deviant who uses his position as Captain of the Millennium Falcon for sexual favors. As far as we know anyway.

To be fair to you, if I had read what you wrote, and had never seen "The Empire Strikes Back," I would agree that sounds like assault.

Frankly, Leia's kiss with Luke on Hoth is assault. He wasn't expecting it. She just grabs his face and shoves her lips onto his. She gave him no choice.

FWIW, I'll agree with you that this is not presented as an assault, and that the creators of the scene didn't intend it as such.

But in a way, that makes it worse. They're depicting an assault, whilst sending the message that it's not really one. The message a viewer is likely to take from this scene is that when a woman says no, she doesn't really mean it. When she rejects you, the way to respond is to continue pushing yourself on her and make her kiss you. Because if you do, you will break through her resistance and then she will love you.

It's meant to be romantic, but it's really kind of a creepy scene.

It's tangential, but remember that Lucas and Spielberg are also the guys who put a statutory rape into Indiana Jones's backstory in Raiders of the Lost Ark, which Jones was entirely unrepentant for, justifying it with "You knew what you were doing." Although it's not in the movie, IIRC the suggestion was that Marion would have been 14 when this happened.

There are some pretty messed up attitudes to sex in Hollywood, when you start to think about it.

[Graham Kennedy]

He's a follower of James Bond... just a little bit rapey.

Bond is actually worse than this, at least some of the time.

The beginning and end of this scene, for instance. Physical force, blackmail, threats to her job... this isn't "rapey", this is outright rape.

[IanKennedy]

The later one isn't much better. His interactions with the recently widowed wife for example, especially as the man who actually killed her husband.

[Atekimogus]

So... in what way is this possibly not a case of sexual assault?

I guess the rule of thumb here is that it is only sexual assault or creepy if the involved parties are not attracted to another at all. If you have two persons doing the exact same thing in the exact same manner, the deciding factor if it is considered flirty or creepy is often just if one is attractive and the other one is not.

I would make the point that at this point in the movie we all already know that they are attracted to one another, there is great chemistry there hence it doesn't come off as super creepy. Some exact movie with the Wookie suddenly forcing himself on her....well...

[Graham Kennedy]

So the argument there is that it's okay to override a woman's "no" if she is attracted to you?

[Nutso]

He's a follower of James Bond... just a little bit rapey.

Oliver Reed or Han Solo?

[Nutso]

It's just that she kisses him too. Her head tilts up to make her lips meet his.

So? Does that negate the fact that she told him "no" several times?

She didn't say 'No' to the kiss. She went full on him, didn't pull away, met his lips with hers.

I would like to stop now. Every time I read my responses, it sounds like something a suspect in a rape trial would say. "She didn't say 'No' to this or 'No' to that." I concede the point. I bow out.

[IanKennedy]

I guess the rule of thumb here is that it is only sexual assault or creepy if the involved parties are not attracted to another at all. If you have two persons doing the exact same thing in the exact same manner, the deciding factor if it is considered flirty or creepy is often just if one is attractive and the other one is not.

I would make the point that at this point in the movie we all already know that they are attracted to one another, there is great chemistry there hence it doesn't come off as super creepy. Some exact movie with the Wookie suddenly forcing himself on her....well...

So it's OK for attractive people to rape someone but not for ugly people?

Also known the old "she enjoyed it" defence.

[Mikey]

Certainly by the mores of this age of Brock Turners et. al., there is an element of, if not "rapiness," then of at least inconsiderate insistence. However, let's remember that this is melodrama, and Leia was meant to (and successfully did) show conflicting emotions regarding Han as well as visibly finally consenting to and participating in the kiss. There are an awful lot of things that occur in SW that people can't do in RL, and I think deliberately misinterpreting dramatic intent for something more sinister is missing the point of watching the movie.

[Graham Kennedy]

It's just that she kisses him too. Her head tilts up to make her lips meet his.

So? Does that negate the fact that she told him "no" several times?

She didn't say 'No' to the kiss. She went full on him, didn't pull away, met his lips with hers.

I would like to stop now. Every time I read my responses, it sounds like something a suspect in a rape trial would say. "She didn't say 'No' to this or 'No' to that." I concede the point. I bow out.

That is the wider point. As I said earlier, I do not think Lucas or whoever intended to depict a sexual assault here. He intended to depict Leia wanting the kiss, but not wanting to admit it.

But that makes it worse, not better. Because what they're selling here is, as you said, kind of a rapist fantasy world in which women who say no repeatedly actually mean yes, and so it's okay to push the issue.

And yes, she responded to the kiss. But that doesn't make it okay! There are women who have orgasms whilst being raped - and men who claim that this means she secretly wanted it so it wasn't rape. Much the same argument is used by many to claim that it's a physical impossibility for a woman to rape a man, because any boner automatically denotes consent to any sex act with any woman.

And I'm not especially attacking this movie, here. I already pointed out a James Bond example which is far worse; Hollywood history is littered with such examples.