Question about Jedi

Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Graham Kennedy » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:46 am

Mikey wrote:
Graham Kennedy wrote:So here's a question... could an ordinary person be so skilled with a lightsabre that they could defeat a Jedi?


Supposedly, an ordinary (non-Force-sensitive) person can't wield a lightsaber at all. Sure, Greivous used four, but the longtime rap is that a person has to be Force-sensitive in order to use a lightsaber. From my limited understanding, the lack of any weight or mass to the blade necessitates Force-user reflexes - this may explain Greivous' ability to use them, as his cyborg reflexes could probably be handwaved as being far superior to baseline human (or baseline whatever he was before his cyborg-ification.)

Now that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It's not like they swing around much faster than a normal (light-weight) sword would, so I don't see what would be needed that's special. Any it's not like we haven't seen normal people handle one - Han used one to cut open that animal thing on Hoth and he used it just fine.

I can certainly believe it would take some training to use one properly if you were used to a normal sword, or that normals who used one tended to have a lot of "oops" moments that left limbs on the ground, buy impossible? No.
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Mikey » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:15 am

Hey man, don't shoot the messenger. Never made much sense to me, either, but there had to be some reason that "normies" don't go around using the damn things.
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Captain Seafort » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:23 am

Graham Kennedy wrote:I can certainly believe it would take some training to use one properly if you were used to a normal sword, or that normals who used one tended to have a lot of "oops" moments that left limbs on the ground, buy impossible? No.


Indeed - I've always interpreted the term "wield" as meaning "use as an effective weapon". There's obviously nothing stopping a non-Force user picking one up and turning it on, as Han demonstrated. Indeed, Luke in ANH probably counts as well. The problem is that it's highly unlikely that they'd be able to use it as anything more than a tool. Luke taking the wampa's arm off is probably close to the limit of what a non-Jedi could manage, and I'm not convinced that without the Force he could have freed himself without chopping his own feet off. Even a lightweight blade gives some tactile feedback of where it is, whereas a massless blade gives none whatsoever.

Mikey wrote:a) Heirarchical standing. Qui-Gon = master; Maul = apprentice. Not a perfect representation, as Maul's master was more powerful than many of Qui-Gon's heirarchical peers, but it's something.

b) Qui-Gon was spoken of as being quite powerful, even for one of his rank in the Order, and that he would have been a peer of such personages as Yoda and Windu save for his maverick attitude. Maul, OTOH, was simply a stopgap pawn in Sidious' grand scheme.


Indeed, but to counter that, Kenobi was a Council Master while Anakin was a recently promoted knight when they fought on Mustafar, and there's no doubt that Anakin was the more powerful of those two - rank comes down to experience and talent as well as raw power. Maul is a bit of an unusual case, as although he was an apprentice, he was also second only to Sidious in the Sith hierarchy - the equivalent of Ki Adi Mundi, or Windu, and I'm not convinced that he was a stopgap rather than Sidious' intended successor.
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Mikey » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:54 pm

Captain Seafort wrote: I've always interpreted the term "wield" as meaning "use as an effective weapon".


That seems fair to say, though Grievous is the fly in that ointment. As I've said, his ability to effecgtively use lightsabers in combat could be a function of his cyborgification, or could be an innate ability of the Kaleesh... though all in all, it seems an awfully big hole to risk just for the chance to show Grievous using lightsabers.

Captain Seafort wrote: Maul is a bit of an unusual case, as although he was an apprentice, he was also second only to Sidious in the Sith hierarchy - the equivalent of Ki Adi Mundi, or Windu,


Well, like I said it's not a perfect comparison. Of course Maul was second, because there are only ever two Sith. I sure as hell wouldn't call him the equivalent of Ki Adi Mundi or Mace Windu, as those two were Jedi Masters and council members, equal in rank (if not reputation) to any other member of the council - even Yoda, to whom you are obviously referring as "first among equals."

Captain Seafort wrote: I'm not convinced that he was a stopgap rather than Sidious' intended successor.


You may not be, and I don't have evidence. I am firmly under the impression, though, that Maul was simply a dark-side werrand boy filling the apprentice position until Sidious got hsi hands on Anakin.
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Captain Seafort » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:16 pm

Mikey wrote:That seems fair to say, though Grievous is the fly in that ointment. As I've said, his ability to effecgtively use lightsabers in combat could be a function of his cyborgification, or could be an innate ability of the Kaleesh... though all in all, it seems an awfully big hole to risk just for the chance to show Grievous using lightsabers.


Grievous, as you say, was a cyborg, and therefore has the advantage of computer-aided precision and response times.

I'm not convinced that he was a stopgap rather than Sidious' intended successor.


You may not be, and I don't have evidence. I am firmly under the impression, though, that Maul was simply a dark-side errand boy filling the apprentice position until Sidious got hsi hands on Anakin.


When Maul began his training, Sidious didn't know Anakin existed. He may not even have been born. Tyranus was certainly a stop-gap, but for Maul to be so makes a lot less sense.
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Mikey » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:51 am

I don't see how it makes less sense.
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Captain Seafort » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:28 am

Because as far as Sidious knew at the time Maul started training, Maul would be his replacement, so why would he treat said replacement as a stop-gap and, by implication, settle for less than the strongest Force-user he could find.
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Mikey » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:06 am

Why? Because this -

Captain Seafort wrote:as far as Sidious knew at the time Maul started training, Maul would be his replacement


is a tenet which I do not believe to be true. Sidious has shown fairly accurate precognition, and at any rate knew the dangers of having a powerful Sith apprentice (having been said danger himself.) Of course Vader would have been such a danger as well, save for the fact that he was able to use Padme, and later Anakin's physical demolishment, to twist and chain Vader's mind.
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby sunnyside » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:44 am

Regarding the OP, relevant quote at one minute twenty seconds:


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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:02 am

Mikey wrote:is a tenet which I do not believe to be true. Sidious has shown fairly accurate precognition


Over what sort of time period though? Hours? Days? Months? Years? He certainly demonstrated decent precog over the relatively short-term, and certain major events (such as the Vong invasion) over the very long term, but I've seen no evidence of him predicting specifics over that sort of timescale, certainly not enough to predict Anakin's birth, discovery and character with sufficient precision as to be able to rely on him as an apprentice. Once he was discovered, of course, especially given Maul's recent death, he recast his. Indeed, I suspect most of his political positioning isn't precog, but an exceptional (probably Force-assisted) ability to read people's characters and predict their responses to various stimuli from that.

at any rate knew the dangers of having a powerful Sith apprentice (having been said danger himself.) Of course Vader would have been such a danger as well, save for the fact that he was able to use Padme, and later Anakin's physical demolishment, to twist and chain Vader's mind.


That was the whole point of the Rule of Two - "one to wield power, the other to crave it". That was what Bane hammered home from the start - for the Sith to succeed, they had to ensure that they grew more powerful over time, and the only way to ensure that within the tenants of the Dark Side was for the Master to be defeated by an stronger apprentice, rather than being overwhelmed by a pack of weaker apprentices who would then inevitably turn on each other, or succumb to old age.
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Coalition » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:00 pm

Mikey wrote: That seems fair to say, though Grievous is the fly in that ointment. As I've said, his ability to effecgtively use lightsabers in combat could be a function of his cyborgification, or could be an innate ability of the Kaleesh... though all in all, it seems an awfully big hole to risk just for the chance to show Grievous using lightsabers.


Also note that Grievous' skill with lightsabers was shown against Jedi that were already afraid/panicked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIj7gIDFDe4

Against a calm Sith, not so much (plus tactics for fighting Jedi):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKgv6xyY5MM

When against a Jedi that was calm and focused, he lost.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXTFdDrd7pA

Mikey wrote: You may not be, and I don't have evidence. I am firmly under the impression, though, that Maul was simply a dark-side werrand boy filling the apprentice position until Sidious got hsi hands on Anakin.


I'd see Sidious talking to both Maul and Dooku. He talks to Maul as a blunt weapon, while keeping Sidious for political access. (And letting both think they will be his successor after killing the other.)
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Graham Kennedy » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:13 am

Alright, another Jedi question.

Force ability appears to be a hereditary thing, right? The whole "The Force is strong in my family" line - that's not meant to just be a coincidence is it?

And in the prequels (boo!) we find that Jedi are forbidden from having sex.

So, is that rule a deliberate long-term attempt to wipe Jedi out of existence? The Jedi order deliberately goes around the galaxy finding everyone they can who has this hereditary trait, and recruits them (preferably from long before puberty!) into a system where they can never pass it on. Can that really be an accident?

And what if Jedi breed with other Jedi (Not Luke and Leia, this isn't Game of Thrones, lol)? If two powerful Jedi mate, presumably the offspring is very likely to be a powerful Jedi too, right? Couldn't you breed a super-Jedi like that? Is that what the rule is meant to prevent, super-Jedi who are too strong to be around people?

Surely there's loads about this in the novels and stuff?
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby McAvoy » Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:25 am

I think the rule is to prevent occasions where the Jedi can be put into a situation where he has to choose or something truly bad happens and his emotions take over. Like how would a Jedi react to his children being murdered, it might push him to the Dark Side.
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Mikey » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:51 pm

Indeed, I believe the rule is about long-term attachments rather than procreation per se./ I.e., the Jedi Order encourages one-night stands lol.

Dooku's comment states that skill with a lightsaber is independent of the depths of one's knowledge of the Force, but doesn't contradict the idea that one needs to be Force-sensitive in order to puissantly wield a lightsaber. There are, for example, quadrupedal species which feature Force-sensitives who have become extremely knowledgeable and powerful Jedi, but who physically can't wield a lightsaber at all.
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Re: Question about Jedi

Postby Graham Kennedy » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:52 pm

Excellent useage of the word "puissantly" there. :)
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