Order

stitch626
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Re: Order

Post by stitch626 »

But they don't teach to avoid it. They just say to.

They don't go into why it is harmful, and dangerous, and how it would corrupt a person. They just say, "avoid it, its bad".

They Jedi do two things wrong, they don't actually teach a bloody thing when it comes to protecting oneself from the effects and temptations of the Dark side, and the encourage sociopathy (they have to kill on occasion, but they must feel no emotion, which includes remorse and guilt).
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Re: Order

Post by Teaos »

Well they do teach respect for all life, and even they must realize you do not purge emotion, you manage them so they dont over come you.

How would you prepose they teach avoiding the darkside? Kill bunnies infront of them and then smack them when they get angry?
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Re: Order

Post by Tsukiyumi »

Like I said to Deep when he proposed this topic, why do people "fall to the dark side"? Always seemed like more of a problem with ambition and willpower than anything else. My ideal order would be a whole bunch of Mace Windus; people unafraid to examine the dark side and harness it's power, but with enough willpower and humility to avoid "falling" into it like it was an open manhole cover.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
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Re: Order

Post by stitch626 »

No, killing bunnies not required. I would actually teach. Ways of keeping calm (reciting the Jedi code like a moron doesn't work as we have seen), history on why even playing with the dark side leads to terrible things (especially including what lead to the fall of the well known fallen Jedi), lessons on how to avoid specific temptations (including how to handle a dark force user without anger), and most importantly, how to accept emotions such as love and passion, and understand their effect on you (because simply ignoring them does not work) and to control them (rather than just ignore them).


Of course, for more (very) advanced ones, include lessons on traditionally dark powers and how they can be used in the ways of the light (lightning has been used as an emergency defibrillator, as well as a very careful force choke/grip to massage a heart... of course Anakin tried that one and failed, bother both have been successful at some point). Also important would be teaching why politicians are never to be trusted no matter which side they are on (Anakin could have used that one).

Also, teaching them critical thinking.
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Re: Order

Post by Teaos »

Like I said to Deep when he proposed this topic, why do people "fall to the dark side"? Always seemed like more of a problem with ambition and willpower than anything else. My ideal order would be a whole bunch of Mace Windus; people unafraid to examine the dark side and harness it's power, but with enough willpower and humility to avoid "falling" into it like it was an open manhole cover.
How do you know if they have enough will power to avoid falling before its to late? What if you think they can handle it, teach them the skills, then realise they arent to stable. Do you kill them and start afresh?
No, killing bunnies not required. I would actually teach. Ways of keeping calm (reciting the Jedi code like a moron doesn't work as we have seen), history on why even playing with the dark side leads to terrible things (especially including what lead to the fall of the well known fallen Jedi), lessons on how to avoid specific temptations (including how to handle a dark force user without anger), and most importantly, how to accept emotions such as love and passion, and understand their effect on you (because simply ignoring them does not work) and to control them (rather than just ignore them).


Of course, for more (very) advanced ones, include lessons on traditionally dark powers and how they can be used in the ways of the light (lightning has been used as an emergency defibrillator, as well as a very careful force choke/grip to massage a heart... of course Anakin tried that one and failed, bother both have been successful at some point). Also important would be teaching why politicians are never to be trusted no matter which side they are on (Anakin could have used that one).
I believe they do get taugh way to keep calm, we only see small fraction of their training and we know it take sover a decade and included at the very least meditation. Also there seems to be several schools of though on the force and it is mostly left up to the masters to train them, Quyi-Gon taugh the living force, Yoda taugh meditation and patience, Windu taugh pimp slapping.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
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Re: Order

Post by Tsukiyumi »

Teaos wrote:How do you know if they have enough will power to avoid falling before its to late? What if you think they can handle it, teach them the skills, then realise they arent to stable. Do you kill them and start afresh?
Psych evaluations, for one thing. Extremely unstable people with force sensitivity just wouldn't be trained. Plenty of light-side Jedi "fell" to the dark side anyways; a policy of teaching them to confront and control those impulses would probably mitigate the issue somewhat. If they turn all yellow-eyed evil and start force choking orphans, you kind of have to kill them anyways.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
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Re: Order

Post by Teaos »

Considering people were often taken in for training when they were under 5 years old I wonder how effective your Psych evaluations would be.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
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Re: Order

Post by Tsukiyumi »

Well, obviously it wouldn't be a one-time thing. And they do have child psychologists, you know.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
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Re: Order

Post by Mikey »

I tend to agree with Tsu - you can't teach people (especially kids) by saying, "Here's something that you must avoid completely, and we'll talk no more of it" and expect them to do anything but explore it. People in general have some touch of ODD, if not a full-blown syndrome, and the air of mystery and the forbidden which the Jedi cast about the Dark Side when preaching only emphasizes that. In order to have your students act with an appropriate revulsion of the Dark Side, they must understand why it should be avoided. "Because I said so" doesn't work in the proper way when instructing a child why he shouldn't have a cookie five minutes before dinner, and it won't when a young padawan sees in the Dark Side nothing but an easy alternate path to power, even power for good - which is exactly what it would seem to someone who hasn't actually been instructed as to what it is.

Yes, personality screening is probably more important than even screening for a degree of Force sensitivity when selecting a candidate, and in general the Jedi Order should have been a lot more picky than it seemed to be. My ideal order would be just that; there should never be enough people in it to form even just the staff officer corps of an army as the Jedi did in the Clone War. A decentralized group of cells based geographically on systems and gerrymandered by demographics would be my logistical setup, and certainly without the easy and familiar access to the highest levels of government which the Jedi seemed to have had. The selection process would begin as early as the Jedi had done, but candidates would not be removed from their home environments until at least near puberty (as appropriate to the species in question.) Training could be done in-home or on a scheduled basis in the basics of control until that time, while the above-mentioned personality and psychological screenings were ongoing regarding both the candidate and the family situation. Who knows how many Jedi fell to the Dark Side who otherwise wouldn't if they hadn't undergone the trauma of being ripped from their homes and families at such a young age? Such a system would also help you root out the kids who were prone to abuse of their power before they became masters of the lightsaber or super-powered killing machines.
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Re: Order

Post by Teaos »

Leaving young kids at home with friends and family while learning that thye have the ability to alter minds? Yeah thats not going to back fire into neighbourhood wide orgies.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
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Re: Order

Post by Mikey »

Yeah, and taking kids from their homes won't create sociopathic power-freaks with a propensity to crush people's tracheas and help enslave the galaxy. Oh, wait, it did.
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Re: Order

Post by Teaos »

Once out of how many tens of thousands of times? Good odds. And that speaks of other problems, if anything, it was taking him away when he was to old.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
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Re: Order

Post by Deepcrush »

The problem isn't in taking or not taking someone or what their age is. What makes the difference is HOW you take then and HOW you treat them after taking them.
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Re: Order

Post by Mikey »

Deepcrush wrote:The problem isn't in taking or not taking someone or what their age is. What makes the difference is HOW you take then and HOW you treat them after taking them.
I agree. That's why in my example I mentioned teaching CONTROL in the home environment, and I took it be understood that instruction in the use of Force abilities would be reserved until later... after which time there would have been ample evaluations to ensure that the kid wouldn't suffer personality trauma due to leaving home even at that later time.
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Re: Order

Post by Deepcrush »

Well with correct concern you wouldn't want to train force users and force sensitives with normal children. But I see no reason that regional type schools couldn't be set up to allow the children to spend their first years in learning, close to home. The Samurai of later feudal Japan used it to great success with the training of their youths.
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