Balance

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Teaos
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Re: Balance

Post by Teaos »

And I think the Jedi did notice it was happening at the last moment, most of them tried to fight back but were out numbered. We know Yoda senced it clearly.
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Re: Balance

Post by Tyyr »

He didn't have to do it himself - the war did it. Hatred, violence, death and suffering on a vast scale.
Which has happened before and we've never heard anything of it. We've also never heard anything in the movies themselves that point to the war itself being the cause. The Jedi were running blind BEFORE the war ever started. I can buy Palpatine using the darkside to disguise himself and his motives to Jedi in the room or even on a planet with him. That seems to be what the movies are indicating. My point is, the Jedi's ability to "Prophesy" seems to be pretty shitty on a good day so putting all your trust in a very vague prophecy is probably a bad idea.
We've seen plenty of Jedi killed or injured in other situations, most notably in the Geonosis arena, where plenty of them were brought down by massed fire from the battle droids.
Exactly, brought down by massed fire. Jedi or not you can only twirl a lightsaber so fast. There is a finite number of blaster shots per unit time a Jedi can stop. More shots, more angles and you should be able to just swamp them in shots. You don't need to lay the blame on the shroud of the darkside and, the war had just started, you didn't have a galaxy spanning war to help fuck with everyone's perceptions. They just plain old saturated the Jedi's ability to block shots on Geonosis.

Getting back to my main point Jedi's ability to foretell the future is shitty and spotty on a good day. Putting your faith in a Jedi prophecy is just ridiculous. Hell, how many thousands of Jedi and not a single one of them a few years before the war got the heebie jeebies that they were all going to die soon? Anakin had visions of Padme dying in childbirth what, four years before it happened? No one at all ever got a single bad dream about everyone in the order dying in a couple years? When blaster bolts are flying right at them they seemed to do alright but beyond that Jedi's ability to clue in on the future looks to be mostly bullshit.
And I think the Jedi did notice it was happening at the last moment, most of them tried to fight back but were out numbered. We know Yoda senced it clearly.
No, they didn't. Ayaala Secura is running point with her clones and was carefully looking forward. She got shot in the back with zero reaction. The woman with the fat tentacle hair on the speeder. Zero reaction as her clones blew her bike away. Ploo Koon in his fighter, no reaction before his clones shot his ass down. Ki Adi Amundi only reacted when he realized his clones weren't firing at the droids ahead of them. Obi Wan, no reaction, focused entirely on getting to the droid ship ahead of him until the artillery shot blew him off the wall. Ki Adi is the only one who looked to react at all and it was to his clones not firing and he looked back at them confused, not preparing to defend himself until he turned fully around and saw them all aiming at him. Yoda is the lone one who seemed to realize something was up and it wasn't until the two clones were right on top of him. Heck, even in some of the pre-production drawings the Jedi were dying with no reaction. Bariss Ofee, peeking through and alien forest, next frame she's blow to pieces when the AT-PT behind her fires.
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Re: Balance

Post by Captain Seafort »

Tyyr wrote:Which has happened before and we've never heard anything of it. We've also never heard anything in the movies themselves that point to the war itself being the cause. The Jedi were running blind BEFORE the war ever started. I can buy Palpatine using the darkside to disguise himself and his motives to Jedi in the room or even on a planet with him. That seems to be what the movies are indicating.
While Palpatine's own shroud is probably only effective locally, Windu's statement in AotC is pretty clearly referring to a galaxy-wide problem, and Yoda expected the war to make things much worse.
You don't need to lay the blame on the shroud of the darkside and, the war had just started, you didn't have a galaxy spanning war to help fuck with everyone's perceptions. They just plain old saturated the Jedi's ability to block shots on Geonosis.
They also had far more droids than the typical Jedi had clones, and the better Jedi (Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, etc) were still holding them off. Those are the guys you need to blind before the massed fire will be effective.
Putting your faith in a Jedi prophecy is just ridiculous. Hell, how many thousands of Jedi and not a single one of them a few years before the war got the heebie jeebies that they were all going to die soon?
As you pointed out - the shroud was around before the war, and precog has always been shown to get blurrier the farther into the future you get.
Anakin had visions of Padme dying in childbirth what, four years before it happened?
Months at most.
No one at all ever got a single bad dream about everyone in the order dying in a couple years? When blaster bolts are flying right at them they seemed to do alright but beyond that Jedi's ability to clue in on the future looks to be mostly bullshit.
Knowing where a specific blaster bolt from a known enemy is going to be in half a second is one thing. Knowing that you're going to be shot at by your own troops is another matter entirely.
Yoda is the lone one who seemed to realize something was up and it wasn't until the two clones were right on top of him.
Yoda knew something was off a long time before that, because he felt the rest of the Jedi dying. Sidious fucked up by not putting him at the top of the list.
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Re: Balance

Post by Teaos »

Windu and Yoda did talk of plots against the Jedi while in the temple, they could sence order 66 even though they were only 5 miles from the emperor. The darkside clouded the details though.
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Re: Balance

Post by Mikey »

I for one am rather glad that Jedi precognition was shown to be unreliable and haphazard under the circumstances. It seemed to be the one arena in which Jedi were depicted as fallible people with a certain gift which was likewise fallible, rather than ubermenschen who could only be defeated by magic plot fiat.
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Re: Balance

Post by Deepcrush »

The problem with precognition is it requires intent. There was no way for the Jedi to know the Clones plans for the simple fact that the Clones had no idea what their orders would be. Up until EO66 the clones were ordered to be loyal to the point of their own deaths. So even if the Jedi were to put their efforts to reading the clones then that is all they would have picked up.

As to balance, it was simple ego that blinded the Jedi there. Yoda got to see it just before the end, however by then it was too late.
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Re: Balance

Post by Tyyr »

When the vision of Padme dying came to Anakin where was the intent there?
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Re: Balance

Post by Deepcrush »

In his actions, much as the actions that led to him searching for his mother. The two situations are no different in the end, showing that as long as the Jedi think things are going their way they don't pay any attention. This ended up being their downfall.
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Re: Balance

Post by stitch626 »

Tyyr wrote:When the vision of Padme dying came to Anakin where was the intent there?
I think it was him being afraid she would die that was the "intent".
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Re: Balance

Post by Mikey »

I think Deep is right, but for the wrong reasons. The problem isn't so much intent - the precog involved wouldn't be reading the clones' intentions but rather the future occurrences which would happen - but rather the future involving Order 66 wasn't firmly destined. The problem with reading the future is that there are so many possible futures, and even the Force doesn't know which one will come to pass. In the case of Anakin's vision of Padme's death, there was a definite preference for that future since Anakin was actively, albeit unwittingly, a driving force in bringing it about.

Come to think of it, this could be why Dark Side users seem to have better prescience - because the futures that they are reading are ones which they have an active hand in bringing about.
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Re: Balance

Post by McAvoy »

Good point. It could also be a matter of training and strength in the Force. Some of the more powerful Jedi do not have to have be well trained in precog. Anakin seemed to be well trained in because he was subconsciously using before he was found to be Force sensitive. That and Anakin's power.
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Re: Balance

Post by Teaos »

True, we know differnt Jedi have different strenghts. Dooku was apparently one of the most gifted with Saber, mastering mutliple forms, Mace was just badass, Yoda was into meditation, Quyi-Gon was the living force.
What does defeat mean to you?

Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
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