J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby RK_Striker_JK_5 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:08 pm

Barring the end of Endor, and even then, stormtroopers were pretty good. It was the Ewoks that killed their rep, and the EU as well IIRC. They fell like tenpins in the X-wing novels.
User avatar
RK_Striker_JK_5
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 9111
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:27 am
Location: New Hampshire

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby Mikey » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:55 pm

I think the so-called "stormtrooper effect" has grown in the re-telling. Obi-Wan, who can be fairly considered somewhat of an expert on fighting, declared their aim to be more accurate than the adult males of a warrior tribe. The shots that are ridiculed often seem to be closer a/o easier than they actually are; and people more experienced with shooting than I am will freely tell you that "easy" shots are generally a fallacy perpetrated by those who don't shoot.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33125
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby Tyyr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:55 pm

Well if you consider the scene where Han runs into the Stormtroopers there are a lot of factors.
1) It was a chance meeting. No one was ready to start shooting.
2) Most of the stormtroopers had compatriots in their line of fire making it difficult to even start to shoot.
3) They were taking hip shots at a target that was rapidly running away and around a curve in the hallway.

Something else that comes to mind. Most of these weapons have lower rates of fire than even a semi-auto pistol. It's not like they had an assault rifle and were able to quickly rattle off bursts to walk fire onto a target. They're making snap shots with what amount to single shot weapons.
User avatar
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby Captain Seafort » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:02 pm

Tyyr wrote:Well if you consider the scene where Han runs into the Stormtroopers there are a lot of factors.
1) It was a chance meeting. No one was ready to start shooting.
2) Most of the stormtroopers had compatriots in their line of fire making it difficult to even start to shoot.
3) They were taking hip shots at a target that was rapidly running away and around a curve in the hallway.


4) They were under orders to let the rebels get away. Vader's beacon would have been useless if everyone who knew where the rebel base was got shot.

Something else that comes to mind. Most of these weapons have lower rates of fire than even a semi-auto pistol. It's not like they had an assault rifle and were able to quickly rattle off bursts to walk fire onto a target. They're making snap shots with what amount to single shot weapons.


E-11's have, at the very least, a burst fire capability - Han put a few double taps into the cameras in the cell block, too quickly for it to be two pulls.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14993
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby Praeothmin » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:12 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:So Ewoks and Rebel soldiers are all heroes now? :P


Image


One Ewok out of how many they were shooting at?
And wasn't this one killed by the explosive bolt of an AT-ST impacting next to it?
The Ewoks had better success with their arrows, and primitive bows like theirs are harder to aim correctly...

Image


And how tough is it to fire at dark clad figures in a white walled hallway less than two meters wide when you swarm said hallway with shots?
Look at the scene again, they're shooting everywhere, shooting up the walls, everything, of course some shots are bound to hit something...

Mikey wrote:I think the so-called "stormtrooper effect" has grown in the re-telling. Obi-Wan, who can be fairly considered somewhat of an expert on fighting, declared their aim to be more accurate than the adult males of a warrior tribe. The shots that are ridiculed often seem to be closer a/o easier than they actually are; and people more experienced with shooting than I am will freely tell you that "easy" shots are generally a fallacy perpetrated by those who don't shoot.


Yes, in a universe of bad shooters, they are more precise than the rest...

To me, from what I see, the movies do show they have horrible aim, even against unnamed opponents...
Clone Troopers have better aim, but not by that much...
The truth always depends on which side of the fence you're standing... ;)
User avatar
Praeothmin
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 609
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:04 pm
Location: Quebec City

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby Captain Seafort » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:21 pm

Praeothmin wrote:One Ewok out of how many they were shooting at?


Merely an example - the Ewoks were getting slaughtered in the early part of the battle.

And wasn't this one killed by the explosive bolt of an AT-ST impacting next to it?


All we saw was a flash of light and smoke, and when it cleared there was one fewer Ewok. What killed Corpsey could just as easily have been a handgun, given the mess Han made of Greedo.

The Ewoks had better success with their arrows, and primitive bows like theirs are harder to aim correctly...


Targets half typical height, with good natural camouflage and an intimate knowledge of the local terrain are likewise difficult targets.

And how tough is it to fire at dark clad figures in a white walled hallway less than two meters wide when you swarm said hallway with shots?


When you're attacking through a choke point where are most one or two of your guys are up against over a dozen opponents, very.

To me, from what I see, the movies do show they have horrible aim, even against unnamed opponents...


You might want to keep your eyes open next time. It tends to help with the whole "seeing" business.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14993
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby Mikey » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:25 pm

Praeothmin wrote:and primitive bows like theirs are harder to aim correctly...


I beg to differ. Bows at range are harder to use with accuracy; but at shorter distance the act of aiming is more natural with a bow than with a firearm.

Praeothmin wrote:And how tough is it to fire at dark clad figures in a white walled hallway less than two meters wide when you swarm said hallway with shots?
Look at the scene again, they're shooting everywhere, shooting up the walls, everything, of course some shots are bound to hit something...


The stormtroopers were assaulting a defended and prepared position through a deadly bottleneck (the hatch) which admitted one man abreast. The fact that they were successful at all, much less with the ratio of casualties they achieved, means very clearly that the Tantive IV scene is NOT the one to use to impugn the stormtroopers' abilities.

Praeothmin wrote:Yes, in a universe of bad shooters, they are more precise than the rest...

To me, from what I see, the movies do show they have horrible aim, even against unnamed opponents...
Clone Troopers have better aim, but not by that much...


Incorrect. In a universe of average shooters, they are trained shooters. That does not mean perfect, nor should we expect it to do so. Saying that the movies show that the stormies have horrible aim is simply another way of saying that you don't really get how shooting works.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33125
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby Praeothmin » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:28 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:You might want to keep your eyes open next time. It tends to help with the whole "seeing" business.


Oh, they were open, since I did not see the Ewok slaughter you mentioned, since in all the displayed battle, we see a good 5-6 Ewoks die, tops, while we see a bit more ST die, which, considering they had the AT-STs, should have showed many many more dead Ewoks...

All we saw was a flash of light and smoke, and when it cleared there was one fewer Ewok. What killed Corpsey could just as easily have been a handgun, given the mess Han made of Greedo.


Well, like you said, watch the scene again and open your eyes, you'll see the walker bolt impact, explode, and then the Ewok was dead...
You can assume all you want, the movie shows us the sequence of death, and the bolt did come from the AT-ST...
The truth always depends on which side of the fence you're standing... ;)
User avatar
Praeothmin
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 609
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:04 pm
Location: Quebec City

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby Mikey » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Well, like you said, watch the scene again and open your eyes, you'll see the walker bolt impact, explode, and then the Ewok was dead...
You can assume all you want, the movie shows us the sequence of death, and the bolt did come from the AT-ST...


Like you, I always thought that the walker bolt killed the koala. What Seafort's saying, I believe, is that we saw the bolt impact and we saw the koala die; we did not see a definitive causal relationship, just one which we may deduce.

Be that as it may, let's say that the walker's bolt did in fact kill the wombat. So how exactly is that evidence for the incapability of stormtroopers? If a tank shot a 120mm round at a bunch of baddies and killed them all in the round's blast instead of actually hitting them with the jacket of the shell, would you tell that tank's gunner, "You missed. You suck!"
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33125
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby RK_Striker_JK_5 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:37 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
4) They were under orders to let the rebels get away. Vader's beacon would have been useless if everyone who knew where the rebel base was got shot.

This Honestly, everyone 'forgets' this when talking smack about the stormies in ANH. They were ordered to let them escape.
User avatar
RK_Striker_JK_5
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 9111
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:27 am
Location: New Hampshire

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby Mikey » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:52 pm

*bump*

... and in other news, the Shat weighs in (on being excluded.) :lol:
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33125
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: J.J. Abrams to direct Star Wars Episode 7

Postby RK_Striker_JK_5 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:16 am

Ho-kay... Bill? Might wanna tone it down a notch or three thousand. :mrgreen:
User avatar
RK_Striker_JK_5
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 9111
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:27 am
Location: New Hampshire

Previous

Return to Star Wars

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest