Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Which would you go for?

Y-Wing
2
14%
B-Wing
7
50%
K-Wing
5
36%
 
Total votes : 14

Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Tyyr » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:34 pm

They were going to occupy a very signifcant portion of the NR fleet and cause serious concerns galaxy wide as ships would be diverted from necessary work elsewhere to deal with them. Bad wording on my part but a small cluster of worlds was going to cause the NR as a whole a great deal of heartburn.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:36 pm

Tyyr wrote:They were going to occupy a very signifcant portion of the NR fleet and cause serious concerns galaxy wide as ships would be diverted from necessary work elsewhere to deal with them. Bad wording on my part but a small cluster of worlds was going to cause the NR as a whole a great deal of heartburn.


Isolating a trouble spot is always tricky, and always takes vastly superior forces - Sun Tsu recommended 10-to-1 odds, and that's only in two dimensions, without the strategic mobility of hyperdrive.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Deepcrush » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:31 pm

Which is also why Sun Tzu recommended never surround with ten what you can destroy with two.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:54 pm

"If you are ten times your enemy's strength, surround him." Sounds like a pretty clear instruction to me. It takes numbers, but a properly-executed envelopment will lead to a far more complete victory than a straightforward attack - look at Cannae.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Deepcrush » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:22 pm

It is a clear instruction, but its only a single part of the whole and thus a poor manner to use his instructions. His work on engaging a weaker enemy isn't bound to just a single sentence. That being the point of my adding his statement on how to force an engagement which is rather important for putting down revolts.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Captain Seafort » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:07 pm

Deepcrush wrote:It is a clear instruction, but its only a single part of the whole and thus a poor manner to use his instructions.


The whole was a series of instructions on the best approach with given force ratios. It is, of course, a rough rule of thumb, but it gives a decent impression of the numbers needed to envelop a far weaker force that might otherwise escape and cause galaxy-wide chaos as a raiding force

That being the point of my adding his statement on how to force an engagement which is rather important for putting down revolts.


Indeed, but when you're up against the likes of the Yevetha you can't afford to merely attack them - their rather extreme xenophobia means that you have to make sure none of them escape into the wider galaxy. Hence the requirement for complete envelopment.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Deepcrush » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:49 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:The whole was a series of instructions on the best approach with given force ratios. It is, of course, a rough rule of thumb, but it gives a decent impression of the numbers needed to envelop a far weaker force that might otherwise escape and cause galaxy-wide chaos as a raiding force


A key point of defeating rebellion is never to envelop.

Captain Seafort wrote:Indeed, but when you're up against the likes of the Yevetha you can't afford to merely attack them - their rather extreme xenophobia means that you have to make sure none of them escape into the wider galaxy. Hence the requirement for complete envelopment.


Containment against ships is different then containment on the ground. The Yevetha problem was a minor issue, simply forcing an engagement would be enough of a control factor no matter who was facing them. Empire, Republic or Vong.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:11 pm

Deepcrush wrote:A key point of defeating rebellion is never to envelop.


Who said anything about rebellions? We were talking about the Yevethan problem. In any event, why not, if you can? The major problem with insurgencies is that their forces are so widely and thinly spread that you can't envelop them effectively.

Containment against ships is different then containment on the ground.


Aye - it's a lot more difficult, especially with hyperdrive, requiring a much stronger force - that's the point I've been making.

The Yevetha problem was a minor issue, simply forcing an engagement would be enough of a control factor no matter who was facing them.


The problem is a) forcing an engagement and b) making sure none of them escape to cause carnage. As it turned out they fought to the death at their homeworld rather than escape to form an insurgency, but that was unexpected, and certainly not something to rely on.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Deepcrush » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:41 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:Who said anything about rebellions? We were talking about the Yevethan problem. In any event, why not, if you can? The major problem with insurgencies is that their forces are so widely and thinly spread that you can't envelop them effectively.


First off, our topic started with talking about the Imperials v Rebels. The Yevethans were also part of a rebellion against the Empire. As to the insurgencies, its not about their forces being spread out but the ability of those forces to strike at targets. Spread or focused, doesn't matter so long as they are unable to attack you.

Captain Seafort wrote:Aye - it's a lot more difficult, especially with hyperdrive, requiring a much stronger force - that's the point I've been making.


You brought up Sun Tzu, another lesson is that you apply no more then needed. So in a case where securing the ground requires ten to one but securing space requires only two to one, you would secure space and preserve resources. The Art of War isn't meant to be taken as bits and pieces. In order to learn from it as a whole you have to apply it as a whole. This is a common civilian mistake in understanding.

Captain Seafort wrote:The problem is a) forcing an engagement and b) making sure none of them escape to cause carnage. As it turned out they fought to the death at their homeworld rather than escape to form an insurgency, but that was unexpected, and certainly not something to rely on.


Another lesson of Sun Tzu, attack targets you know your enemy must defend from you. The Vong attacked their homeworld forcing a fight that either killed off the Yevethans or left so few as they are now gone unnoticed in the Galaxy. The Yevethans were forced to fight an open battle in which the Vong were no longer required to contain but simply engage. You can always rely on a threat to defend its vitals, anyone who denies to defend their vitals is no longer a threat. Yet another lesson of Sun Tzu.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:53 pm

Deepcrush wrote:First off, our topic started with talking about the Imperials v Rebels.


The topic started with a discussion of the Y-wing, B-wing and K-wing. I should know - I wrote it.

The Yevethans were also part of a rebellion against the Empire.


The Yevethans weren't part of anything - their rebellion was completely independent, and they simply took advantage of the Imperial retreat post-Endor.

You brought up Sun Tzu


Simply as an example of the numbers needed to encircle an opponent rather than simply attacking him.

So in a case where securing the ground requires ten to one but securing space requires only two to one, you would secure space and preserve resources.


Against the Yevetha, what's needed isn't simply to defeat them but to ensure they don't escape into the wide galaxy to cause carnage.

Another lesson of Sun Tzu, attack targets you know your enemy must defend from you...You can always rely on a threat to defend its vitals, anyone who denies to defend their vitals is no longer a threat. Yet another lesson of Sun Tzu.


Unless they go from acting as a nation-state to acting as terrorists, in which case your problem changes from one of bringing the enemy to battle to defending your own civilian population.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Deepcrush » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:10 am

Captain Seafort wrote:The topic started with a discussion of the Y-wing, B-wing and K-wing. I should know - I wrote it.


Topic as in topic we were covering, the thread is a different matter.

Captain Seafort wrote:The Yevethans weren't part of anything - their rebellion was completely independent, and they simply took advantage of the Imperial retreat post-Endor.


It however was still a rebellion.

Captain Seafort wrote:Simply as an example of the numbers needed to encircle an opponent rather than simply attacking him.


You encircle only when needed as it equals a siege which is something that Sun Tzu speaks against as often as possible.

Captain Seafort wrote:Against the Yevetha, what's needed isn't simply to defeat them but to ensure they don't escape into the wide galaxy to cause carnage.


Glassing the planet rather then just containing it seemed to do the trick nicely. Again as Sun Tzu pointed out, force your enemy to battle where they must commit to battle even when you hold a winning advantage. The Vong did this and thus they won.

Captain Seafort wrote:Unless they go from acting as a nation-state to acting as terrorists, in which case your problem changes from one of bringing the enemy to battle to defending your own civilian population.


No matter if they are a nation or a terror cell, when on the offensive the key is to leave you enemy without targets to attack. When on the defensive, leave only pointless targets open thus weakening your enemy as they attack. The key to the strategy is still the same regardless of the form of your enemy.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Captain Seafort » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:19 am

Deepcrush wrote:Topic as in topic we were covering, the thread is a different matter.


Then the topic we were covering was the Fifth Fleet, followed by the Yevethan War. The Imps never came into it.

You encircle only when needed as it equals a siege which is something that Sun Tzu speaks against as often as possible.


And that's what was needed - it was vital to avoid a bunch of nasty little shits like the Yevetha getting out into the galaxy.

Glassing the planet rather then just containing it seemed to do the trick nicely. Again as Sun Tzu pointed out, force your enemy to battle where they must commit to battle even when you hold a winning advantage. The Vong did this and thus they won.


I was talking more about the cluster than the planet, and as much as a Base Delta Zero would have solved the problem, can you really see the New Republic doing it, any more than the UFP?

No matter if they are a nation or a terror cell, when on the offensive the key is to leave you enemy without targets to attack. When on the defensive, leave only pointless targets open thus weakening your enemy as they attack. The key to the strategy is still the same regardless of the form of your enemy.


Hardly. A terrorist group has very little to lose, somewhere between few and no vital points to hold, and a positive advantage in attacking soft targets that a military force would ignore as not being worthwhile.
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Re: Favourite Rebel/NR light bomber

Postby Deepcrush » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:26 am

Captain Seafort wrote:Then the topic we were covering was the Fifth Fleet, followed by the Yevethan War. The Imps never came into it.


Ah, I see what I did, I was reading the Imperial v Yevethan rebellion and got myself mixed up.

Captain Seafort wrote:And that's what was needed - it was vital to avoid a bunch of nasty little shits like the Yevetha getting out into the galaxy.


As the Vong proved, it was in fact not needed at all.

Captain Seafort wrote:I was talking more about the cluster than the planet, and as much as a Base Delta Zero would have solved the problem, can you really see the New Republic doing it, any more than the UFP?


Anyone is capable of committing any action with regards to war. You can't even host an honest debate, our forum leaders can't even enforce their own rules. With as simple as these matters are then we have to understand when it comes to something such as war which is a struggle that may have no end other then one side being exterminated by its opponent, anything becomes possible.

Captain Seafort wrote:Hardly. A terrorist group has very little to lose, somewhere between few and no vital points to hold, and a positive advantage in attacking soft targets that a military force would ignore as not being worthwhile.


Meaningless statement as even if a target isn't worthwhile it doesn't mean that the military would ignore it. Also, any force seeking to attack another force then has a base of support and operation and requires the application of force and support to make effect against its enemy. Also, there is no requirement that the target available be ignored, it can be anything from a trap to a lore. The most effective way to remove a terrorist group is to give it a target in a controlled environment to which you control the battle's outcome.
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