Are the Empire's actions legal?

Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Captain Seafort » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:08 pm

stitch626 wrote:Also, this bit made me laugh:
and it was Admiral Kirk's destroyers (albeit supported by the Enterprise) that bombarded the German positions on Omaha beach


One of the amusing coincidences of history.


Anyway, I personally view ISDs as not being destroyers, since they are called capital ships in Death Star.


Everything over 100m gets called a capital ship. A ship's role is defined but what it does, not what label gets slapped on it this week.

And the Mon Cals had some massive ships, ones that would make an Ex cry.


Certainly - the Viscount class is shorter than the Ex, but far more massive, as are some of the big Imperial ships such as the Assertor class.
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby stitch626 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:26 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Anyway, I personally view ISDs as not being destroyers, since they are called capital ships in Death Star.


Everything over 100m gets called a capital ship. A ship's role is defined but what it does, not what label gets slapped on it this week.

That does make sense. Which is why I consider them light carriers, along with most of the sub super ISDs. They are closer to a JoaT ship (which in a lot of Sci fi, carriers tend to be depicted as) rather than having a dedicated role. They do everything ok, but not much excellently.

Mind you, I tend to prefer not to be strict with using modern day classifications based on something fictional and completely out of our technical grasp.
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Captain Seafort » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:38 pm

stitch626 wrote:Which is why I consider them light carriers, along with most of the sub super ISDs. They are closer to a JoaT ship (which in a lot of Sci fi, carriers tend to be depicted as) rather than having a dedicated role. They do everything ok, but not much excellently.


The best description for them would be COIN platforms - they're designed to clear out rebel-infested systems that can't organise serious resistance. For that they need the speed to chase down blockade runners, the firepower to kill them and any heavier ships the rebels are likely to have (i.e. the droves of sub-km ships that exist), fighters to cover the system for ISTAR and freighter-hunting, and boots on the ground. They don't have anything close to the numbers needed to be considered carriers or troopships - the VenStar had almost six times as many fighters in less than a quarter of the volume, and the Accy carried over 50% more troops in less than an eighth of the volume.
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Atekimogus » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:33 am

Captain Seafort wrote:No, but the Exs were built at Kuat and Fondor. During WW2 there were vast numbers of yards churning out escorts.


Which is only an argument if you believe that ISDs are only small escorts, which I know you do but we simply have to agree to disagree there. For me, the simple fact that an ISD is a carrier, troop transport, battleship and patrolship all simultaniously is a heavy indicator that our conventional naming scheme for sea-going ships just doesn't apply anymore here.

Captain Seafort wrote:Because you might use a destroyer as an ad hoc troopship or bombardment platform, but you don't use battleships to chase minor pirate vessels.


In the depth of space you use whatever is at hand. You wouldn't use a small destroyer in a captial ship role like they did with the blockade fleet on endor. So on one hand you say that Home One and Liberty would wipe the floor with an ISD and on the other hand you can give no reason why they then didn't think about bringing at least one or two of their own supposedly existing capital ships other then the Executor to the fight to, you know, support their fleet of star destroyers who are more use chasing down pirates and stuff?

And the same fucking mistake happened when they formed a dedicated battlegroup to hunt down the major Rebel base on Hoth? Oh Boy, no wonder Vader started choking incompetent officers left and right. :roll:

Oh I forgot....the "real" captial ships where busy chasing down the rebels. Because destroying ther main base and good parts of their leadership or setting a trap for most of their spaceborn assets isn't really that important. Chasing down emtpy space...now THAT's a challenge, I wonder why we didn't see THAT in the movies.

Captain Seafort wrote:
They also used 2 (small) battleships (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau), 3 heavy cruiser (Admiral Hipper, Blücher and Lützow), 4 Light Cruisers (Köln, Königsberg, Karlsruhe, Emden) and 1 ship of the line (Schleswig-Holstein) with a whole bunch of support ships.


So?


So what? It was your argument for destroyers being used in a capacity they are not really designed for. I called BS on that. If they only had their destroyers the would have thought more than twice about invading Norway. Heck even with all their capital ships it was a hell of a risk and they expected to loose 2/3rd against the RN. Not sure where's the mixup.

Captain Seafort wrote:
Bad example since todays warships are not built with Somali pirates in mind.


And? The majority of rebel ships fall into the same category.


And? And how would our navies look like if the only expected threat were Somalia pirates? Probably the same as the imperial fleet, a few big ass ships like the executor for when the shit gets real, but mostly they are in docks and the rest smaller multiporpuse ships which are expected to handle everything that can be thrown at them, like the ISD. There is no need for ships inbetween.


Captain Seafort wrote:You can't magic up a battle fleet out of thin air, and strategic precog has never come with an exact date.


Or we can cut the crap and agree that ol' Palpatine didn't have a clue about the Vong? Now I am ready to accept it if it is somewhere writen, but it has to be more than just idle speculation that he "might" have had a bad dream about them. :roll:

Captain Seafort wrote:After a couple of HO-based task groups had brought down its shields.


Hmm....don't remember this. Was it in the novelization? If so, that's actually a nice touch imho to fill in some holes I wondered during the films.


Captain Seafort wrote:The Ex is a hundred times the size of an ISD. To claim that it was the only ship bigger than them is the equivalent of saying that in WW2 the US Navy had nothing but convoy escorts and Iowas.


Apples and Oranges. If there was no need for a shipclass between an ISD and an Super-ISD (which quite honestly, seems to fall in the same category as the DS, namely just to intimidate with being complete overkill) why would they built intermediary ships?

If 99% of their job is to chase down pirates/rebels - as you say - than what use is a heavy cruiser or dreadnaught when a smaller ship can do so much better and cost efficient?

Captain Seafort wrote:No, I point to ships that were observed after Thrawn's War, but were obviously constructed long before it (unless you think the fleet around Byss, for example, was spammed out in less than a year, with virtually no industry whatsoever).


Which happens quite regularily and which is actually one point I don't like about the EU so I agree, no they couldn't spawn those ships in less than a year.

Captain Seafort wrote:Like I said - tough. You may not like the evidence, but it exists nonetheless, and has been analysed based on extrapolating from known details of more frequently and clearly depicted ships (the consistent size of the bridge and sensor domes for example). The fact that they're rarely an indistinctly seen is no reason to dismiss their existence.


I might not dismiss the evidence of their existance, but I am sure as hell am able to dismiss the analysis as to their size and function. The size of the bridge and sensor domes? Are you shitting me? (pardon my french). Alone in the picture I posted there could be rounding errors of a few hundred percent because it is SO detailed.

Captain Seafort wrote:
See? Just as easy. Prove me wrong. I mean just do a word-count on that page for "suggest", "indicates", "hints at", "possibly" and "probably" :roll: :lol: .......that is NOT evidence I would like to use in a discussion.


Then you're an idiot. When you're interpreting images that, as you point out are somewhat indistinct, such qualifiers are a vital part of any analysis.


And you missed the point completely that I wouldn't use those as evidence - not because I am an idiot (btw. no need to get offensive there) - but because this analysis is extremely inconclusive. We are talking about ships with no names, sometimes even without sighting or anything even remotely approaching a good size reference. You could analyse the SHIT out of those pictures and the result would still be inconclusive, please take your fan-googles off for a moment. You present something like this:
Image

and then have the audacity to say that everything written in the analysis about it is written in stone? Your argument should more go like: "There is POSSIBLE evidence of bigger ships based on those sightings" but claiming it as true, just because some bloke on the internet assigned a number on it? (Boy I hope you are not the author of that site....that would be a me dropping a foot in it :lol: ). Heck for all I know they are still discussing the exact size of the Executor so this is all very flimsy indeed.

On that note I call it quits, you obviously have come to accept those ships and fanon designs as true at which point every further argument is ultimately futile on my part. Let's just agree to disagree. It makes me probably an idiot again in your eyes but I can leave with it... :lol:

Captain Seafort wrote:
But both the movies and Clone wars series trump C-canon when in contradiction, did I get that right?


Correct.


Boy...that sure makes discussing star trek canon almost simply compared to this mess. :laughroll:
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Reliant121 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:02 am

Atekimogus wrote:
Which is only an argument if you believe that ISDs are only small escorts, which I know you do but we simply have to agree to disagree there. For me, the simple fact that an ISD is a carrier, troop transport, battleship and patrolship all simultaniously is a heavy indicator that our conventional naming scheme for sea-going ships just doesn't apply anymore here.


I think you are overstating the role of the ISD by calling them a battleship; I certainly don't consider them small escorts by any means but maybe a light to heavy cruiser of some variety. Their firepower was not up to the biggest ships of the rebel fleet but they were more than adequate to deal with the countless worlds with sub-kilometer sized ships. Put a ISD against the likes of a Nebulon-B or similar sized ship, probably one of the larger ships found in private hands (other than the Mon-Cals) and you know whose going to win. And, just like cruisers in world war II, it came with a much smaller but still useful collection of fighters to assist it in whatever role it's assigned at the time. A number of WW2 cruisers would have a single or a pair of scout planes; this is little different only the vastly increased size of the ship allows not just a single ship but a couple of squadrons of fighters; each of which are perfectly adequate scout ships and can also double as small carriers if really needed. This is further evidence because their compliment of fighters is very poor when put up against the earlier VenStars, which appeared to focus on fleet fighting ability (with a heavy cannon armament and vast fighter compliment) and put the troop carrying on the back seat a bit. The only thing that really doesn't jive 100% with our contemporary nomenclature regarding ships is the troop ship bit; but whose to say the Imperial shipyards simply didn't bolt that on because they had space to fill? These ships are built in ridiculous numbers so making JoaT ships is fine when you're going to have several of them to every rebel ship of similar size.

In the depth of space you use whatever is at hand. You wouldn't use a small destroyer in a captial ship role like they did with the blockade fleet on endor. So on one hand you say that Home One and Liberty would wipe the floor with an ISD and on the other hand you can give no reason why they then didn't think about bringing at least one or two of their own supposedly existing capital ships other then the Executor to the fight to, you know, support their fleet of star destroyers who are more use chasing down pirates and stuff?

And the same fucking mistake happened when they formed a dedicated battlegroup to hunt down the major Rebel base on Hoth? Oh Boy, no wonder Vader started choking incompetent officers left and right. :roll:

Oh I forgot....the "real" captial ships where busy chasing down the rebels. Because destroying ther main base and good parts of their leadership or setting a trap for most of their spaceborn assets isn't really that important. Chasing down emtpy space...now THAT's a challenge, I wonder why we didn't see THAT in the movies.


This isn't just about the tactical and strategic use of warships anymore; you've got to at least consider imperial mindset. For the last few decades they have crushed any form of resistance completely and totally; arrogance and overconfidence can topple even the most efficient military and I suspect it's something all too familiar to the Imperial Navy. Look at Admireal Kendal Ozzel in SW V; his briefing to Vader about his strategic tactics was supremely confident, at least until Vader made him aware of his blunder (approaching the Hoth system directly from hyperspace, therefore making themselves rather easy to spot). ISD's have managed against most things the rebels have thrown up before and, if you take my argument for them being cruisers, would be ideally suited to escorting the Executor. Especially since their numbers theoretically should have been enough to counter the stronger individual ships the Rebels had gained from the Mon Cals.
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Deepcrush » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:44 am

Aki, well played for a clear trump.
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Atekimogus » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:48 pm

Reliant121 wrote:I think you are overstating the role of the ISD by calling them a battleship


That I might have, I agree but still, as long as they are used in that capacity.....let's say they are heavy cruiser...still doesn't mean that there absolutely HAVE to exist pocket battleships as stepping stone to the executor. (I mean the Executor is the one ship standing out, vastly bigger than anything else we see in the movies. The fact that they didn't come up with a real designation but just called it "super" star destroyer seems to indicate that they do not base their naval nomenclature on that ship. The fact that they do not call it Star Battleship seems to indicate that the term "Star Destroyer" has more in common with a Kuat drive yards trademark name than actual navy designation.)

Reliant121 wrote:Look at Admireal Kendal Ozzel in SW V; his briefing to Vader about his strategic tactics was supremely confident, at least until Vader made him aware of his blunder (approaching the Hoth system directly from hyperspace, therefore making themselves rather easy to spot).


That is actually an interesting point someone maybe can shed a bit of light on it since to me it never made much sense to me. Is Vader indicating that if they'd droped out of hyperspace much sooner and approached the system with sublight speed (wouldn't that take ages?) the rebels would have failed to notice that a huge invasion force is approaching?

Isn't dropping out of hyperspace on top of your target not one of the more standard imperial procedures, refined later by the use of an Interdictor cruiser? If anything they were to far AWAY when they dropped out of hyperspace imho. Poor Admiral Ozzel......seems he just couldn't win that one :wink:

Reliant121 wrote:Especially since their numbers theoretically should have been enough to counter the stronger individual ships the Rebels had gained from the Mon Cals.


Now don't bite my face of, but those ugly space cucumbers were just reporpused transport ships afaik and it wasn't until much later when they started building dedicated warships. Surley they are no match for an ISD. (Now approaching this from a gaming point, there isn't a computer game where they were a match for an ISD be it X-Wing, Tie Fighter, X-Wing Alliance (boy do I miss those great games...) etc.. Now normally I wouldn't give to much about a computer game but they are C-canon as I am informed and especially the X-wing, Tie Fighter franchise had quite an impact on the EU. (Tie Defender, Missle boat, Assault gunboat etc. lot's of stuff that actually was picked up by EU authors.)
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:04 pm

Atekimogus wrote:Which is only an argument if you believe that ISDs are only small escorts, which I know you do but we simply have to agree to disagree there. For me, the simple fact that an ISD is a carrier, troop transport, battleship and patrolship all simultaniously is a heavy indicator that our conventional naming scheme for sea-going ships just doesn't apply anymore here.


Why not? Their use films show their primary role roughly matches that of a destroyer, with a few extra goodies, although considerably fewer than a dedicated carrier or troop transport.

You wouldn't use a small destroyer in a captial ship role like they did with the blockade fleet on endor.


As in any fleet formation you use a large number of escorts in support of a few heavies (in this case Executor and at least two AWC "battlecruisers").

So on one hand you say that Home One and Liberty would wipe the floor with an ISD


No, I said a couple of task groups took down the Ex. Home One would kill an ISD pretty easily, but a Liberty is an even match, with a possible advantage to the ISD.

on the other hand you can give no reason why they then didn't think about bringing at least one or two of their own supposedly existing capital ships other then the Executor to the fight


Simple - those heavy ships didn't come into service until decades later.

And the same fucking mistake happened when they formed a dedicated battlegroup to hunt down the major Rebel base on Hoth?


You mean the battlegroup of a dreadnought and a few escorts?

Oh I forgot....the "real" captial ships where busy chasing down the rebels.


No, they were being held in reserve in the core.

It was your argument for destroyers being used in a capacity they are not really designed for.


It was the demonstrate that the mere fact that a ship carries troops (or fighters) does not disprove its primary role. The fact that they were using cruisers as well doesn't change this (especially as Imperial Star Cruisers probably also have the same troop/fighter extras as the ISD.

And how would our navies look like if the only expected threat were Somalia pirates? Probably the same as the imperial fleet, a few big ass ships like the executor for when the shit gets real, but mostly they are in docks and the rest smaller multiporpuse ships which are expected to handle everything that can be thrown at them, like the ISD. There is no need for ships inbetween.


A modern fleet isn't a great force to use as comparison, due to its overwhelming dependence on air power and submarines to do the heavy work. WW1 is probably the closest, albeit with added fighters - destroyers for the mundane work including fleet escort, cruisers as destroyer leaders/local heavies in less important parts of the world, and battleships for killing other battleships.

Or we can cut the crap and agree that ol' Palpatine didn't have a clue about the Vong? Now I am ready to accept it if it is somewhere writen, but it has to be more than just idle speculation that he "might" have had a bad dream about them. :roll:


Jedi, or Sith, rarely dream, and when they have a bad one it's usually an indication that there's serious trouble on the way.

Hmm....don't remember this. Was it in the novelization?


Nope - the film. From the Executor's bridge as the A-Wing hit you can see three Liberty/wingless Liberty-types off her port side, which the view of her dive shows was the same side as Home One. The view of the dive also shows at least one Liberty and one Home One of her port side.

Apples and Oranges. If there was no need for a shipclass between an ISD and an Super-ISD (which quite honestly, seems to fall in the same category as the DS, namely just to intimidate with being complete overkill) why would they built intermediary ships?

If 99% of their job is to chase down pirates/rebels - as you say - than what use is a heavy cruiser or dreadnaught when a smaller ship can do so much better and cost efficient?


For targets that could shrug off an ISD's attack but for which an Ex would be overkill. I've no doubt that the vast majority of the fleet are the small ships such as ISDs, but the existence of the larger ships is indisputable.

The size of the bridge and sensor domes? Are you shitting me? (pardon my french).


Not at all - the Imperial heavies seem to use the same basic superstructure regardless of their size, so the bridge can be used as a yardstick. Compare the bridge structures of the ISD, Allegiance, Bellator and Assertor and you'll see they're all the same size, despite the vastly different sizes of the ships..

Alone in the picture I posted there could be rounding errors of a few hundred percent because it is SO detailed.


Not that much. Certainly you can't say (for example) "that ship is 4852.56 metres long", but you can estimate their sizes to within a km or so. For example, both the ships you've posted are clearly larger than the ISD, due to the lesser prominence of the bridge structure, with the second one the larger.

And you missed the point completely that I wouldn't use those as evidence - not because I am an idiot (btw. no need to get offensive there) - but because this analysis is extremely inconclusive.


It's imprecise in terms of their exact size, role, and firepower, but the evidence for their existence and approximate size is quite conclusive.

We are talking about ships with no names, sometimes even without sighting or anything even remotely approaching a good size reference.


And?

everything written in the analysis about it is written in stone?


Not at all - we have the fact of its existence and its approximate size. That says nothing about its role, precise dimensions, armament, troop or fighter complement

just because some bloke on the internet assigned a number on it? (Boy I hope you are not the author of that site....that would be a me dropping a foot in it :lol: ).


When a bloke far more intelligent than you or I (as demonstrated by his PhD in astrophysics) looks at an image and says "this ship is between length x and length y", I tend to pay attention

Heck for all I know they are still discussing the exact size of the Executor so this is all very flimsy indeed.


No, that's finally been solved (due in large part to the work of the site you're bitching about).

Boy...that sure makes discussing star trek canon almost simply compared to this mess. :laughroll:


Absolutely. Indeed, if C-canon got taken out things would be much easier to resolve, as we'd only have seven Imperial-era ship classes to worry about - four destroyers (Liberty, wingless Liberty, ISD and Tector), two cruisers (the Endor comm ship and Home One) and a battleship (Executor).
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Reliant121 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:18 pm

Atekimogus wrote:
That I might have, I agree but still, as long as they are used in that capacity.....let's say they are heavy cruiser...still doesn't mean that there absolutely HAVE to exist pocket battleships as stepping stone to the executor. (I mean the Executor is the one ship standing out, vastly bigger than anything else we see in the movies. The fact that they didn't come up with a real designation but just called it "super" star destroyer seems to indicate that they do not base their naval nomenclature on that ship. The fact that they do not call it Star Battleship seems to indicate that the term "Star Destroyer" has more in common with a Kuat drive yards trademark name than actual navy designation.)


From my knowledge of the EU, Star Destroyer refers to a vast number of large warships from just under 1km in length to many more km in length. This is the issue with canon in SW; tis exceptionally vague. I think that logic would dictate that a ship between the ISD and the Executor does exist, but I cannot prove it. Therefore, it is possible it does not exist.

It is also possible that the Empire had not created it yet.

That is actually an interesting point someone maybe can shed a bit of light on it since to me it never made much sense to me. Is Vader indicating that if they'd droped out of hyperspace much sooner and approached the system with sublight speed (wouldn't that take ages?) the rebels would have failed to notice that a huge invasion force is approaching?

Isn't dropping out of hyperspace on top of your target not one of the more standard imperial procedures, refined later by the use of an Interdictor cruiser? If anything they were to far AWAY when they dropped out of hyperspace imho. Poor Admiral Ozzel......seems he just couldn't win that one :wink:


I believe the idea Vader has was to drop out of hyperspace outside the detection range of Hoth VI. It seems to suggest the ships appearing out of hyperspace is the event that lead to their detection; the hyperspace energy is what showed up. However, its possible he wanted bomber craft and long distance transports to attempt to secretly approach the planet and destroy the shield BEFORE the main fleet was in orbit, therefore making an orbital bombardment feasible and useful.


Now don't bite my face of, but those ugly space cucumbers were just reporpused transport ships afaik and it wasn't until much later when they started building dedicated warships. Surley they are no match for an ISD. (Now approaching this from a gaming point, there isn't a computer game where they were a match for an ISD be it X-Wing, Tie Fighter, X-Wing Alliance (boy do I miss those great games...) etc.. Now normally I wouldn't give to much about a computer game but they are C-canon as I am informed and especially the X-wing, Tie Fighter franchise had quite an impact on the EU. (Tie Defender, Missle boat, Assault gunboat etc. lot's of stuff that actually was picked up by EU authors.)


The issue with that is there are games that pit them very much equally; Empire at War for example sees Mon Calamari warships taking on the ISD's in an equal capacity (and arguably having a marginal advantage). I think generally speaking canon establishes MC warships as being a slightest bit tougher than equivalent sized imperial warships but I don't have the sources at hand to prove that. I believe also that Home One and Liberty class ships, when seen battling the ISD's in SW VI, have a slight advantage as well. Its only the sheer numbers of imperial warships that really do damage against the heavy Rebel warships.
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:20 pm

Atekimogus wrote:Executor is the one ship standing out, vastly bigger than anything else we see in the movies. The fact that they didn't come up with a real designation but just called it "super" star destroyer seems to indicate that they do not base their naval nomenclature on that ship.


The term "Super Star Destroyer" was only ever used by Ackbar, in a high-pressure situation, in a foreign language. In calmer moments it's universally referred to as a "command ship" - by Solo approaching Endor, and earlier by Palpatine.

That is actually an interesting point someone maybe can shed a bit of light on it since to me it never made much sense to me. Is Vader indicating that if they'd droped out of hyperspace much sooner and approached the system with sublight speed (wouldn't that take ages?) the rebels would have failed to notice that a huge invasion force is approaching?


The further away a ship is, the smaller it will appear - it's taken decades of intensive search just to find dwarf planets in the outer reaches of our system, vastly larger than the Ex. Obviously SW technology sensor is far superior to our own, but it will still have a maximum resolution. Drop in beyond the range at which they can resolve the Ex, and they would have had a chance to creep in using the heavy asteroid activity as cover.

Isn't dropping out of hyperspace on top of your target not one of the more standard imperial procedures, refined later by the use of an Interdictor cruiser?


In active combat situations, yes, but that wasn't the situation at Hoth.

Now don't bite my face of, but those ugly space cucumbers were just reporpused transport ships afaik and it wasn't until much later when they started building dedicated warships. Surley they are no match for an ISD.


Nonetheless, they are shown going head to head with ISDs, killing at least one by direct fire and bringing down the Ex's shields. Now, as you say, an AMC shouldn't be able to kill a proper warship of its own size baring surprise on its part and stupidity on the part of the warship (look up HMAS Sidney if you're interested). You might be able to cut enough holes in the hull to mount guns and hangers, but a ship designed for trade won't have the bracing required to withstand high-TT/low-PT recoil - they'd rip themselves apart. The only theory that makes sense is that those were proper warships, possibly disarmed and converted to transports to comply with Imperial law, but retaining their bracing, warship-grade reactors, and gun mounts, so they could be rapidly rearmed when the time came.
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby stitch626 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:44 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Atekimogus wrote:Executor is the one ship standing out, vastly bigger than anything else we see in the movies. The fact that they didn't come up with a real designation but just called it "super" star destroyer seems to indicate that they do not base their naval nomenclature on that ship.


The term "Super Star Destroyer" was only ever used by Ackbar, in a high-pressure situation, in a foreign language. In calmer moments it's universally referred to as a "command ship" - by Solo approaching Endor, and earlier by Palpatine.

Its refereed to as an SSD in many books that mentions it (though it is also simply referred to as the Executor), including resource books. Also in several comics and a few video games.
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:13 pm

stitch626 wrote:Its refereed to as an SSD in many books that mentions it (though it is also simply referred to as the Executor), including resource books. Also in several comics and a few video games.


So it's common slang, just as ISDs are sometimes colloquially referred to as "cruisers". In the EU the term "Star Dreadnought" is better established as the correct terminology.
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Atekimogus » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:31 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:No, they were being held in reserve in the core.


But isn't that very unlikely? Even if they held back large portions of their fleet, one would expect a mix of ships. As for Hoth for example, if the rebels really had something which could mean trouble for Star Destroyers it seams logical that they wouldn't just employ basically one ship plus escorts but rather a broader mix of available ship classes.

It is possible I suppose, but imho highly unlikely.

Captain Seafort wrote:It was the demonstrate that the mere fact that a ship carries troops (or fighters) does not disprove its primary role. The fact that they were using cruisers as well doesn't change this (especially as Imperial Star Cruisers probably also have the same troop/fighter extras as the ISD.


Well it isn't the troop complement that bothers me, you can stick people on any ship and even an U-boat can board a fishermen. It's more that it also carries 72 Figher/Bombercraft, 8 Shuttles, 15 Stormtrooper assault craft, 20 AT-AT walker, 30 AT-ST walker, a prefabricated garrison base etc. etc it's all listed in the wookiepedia article, which I finally got around to read.

Three other notes of interest:
First the article lists the class simply as "Star Destroyer" class and even makes a mention of the "Star Destroyer Product line".
Second, a ship like the Nebulon-B is listed as escort frigate and capital ship, meaning that ships are indeed classified as per their primary role.
And third, keeping in mind that "star destroyer" (not simple destroyer) seems to be a whole class description, it's roles are defined as destroyer (point for you), carrier AND command ship.

So maybe there are imperial destroyers. Ships who soley perform the role of a destroyer. But a STAR destroyer seems to be the ultimate multi-purpose ship, performing pretty much every role you can think off. A Nebulon-B for that matter fits the description of the ships you refer to much better imho.

Seems to me that they really have their own thing going on with Star Destroyers and that they are in no way and shape only destroyers in the term we understand them today.


Captain Seafort wrote:Nope - the film. From the Executor's bridge as the A-Wing hit you can see three Liberty/wingless Liberty-types off her port side, which the view of her dive shows was the same side as Home One. The view of the dive also shows at least one Liberty and one Home One of her port side.


Ah...ok, here is the thing...this might be something that might have been lost in translation but I watched the movies not in english as a kid so bear with me but my understanding was this: Ackbar ordered to concentrate fire on the Executor. Piett ordered to reinforce the frontal batteries so nothing get's through. Now I took it as that they where both talking about fighter/bombers since reinforcing frontal battery fire wouldn't prevent capital ships from "getting through". And indeed seconds later an A-Wing comes through...

Captain Seafort wrote:Not at all - the Imperial heavies seem to use the same basic superstructure regardless of their size, so the bridge can be used as a yardstick. Compare the bridge structures of the ISD, Allegiance, Bellator and Assertor and you'll see they're all the same size, despite the vastly different sizes of the ships..


Yes, that was my mistake for not being more clear. I don't have a problem with the method of comparison, only with the impossibilty to do so on extremely undetailed pictures like the ones I linked. On those pictures you can hardly make out anything except the most rudimentary details. The contour lines are thicker than the supposed bridge at that detail level not even talking about windows where you could actually see where exactly the bridge ends.

So again, no problem with the method, just a problem that you can hardly apply it in those cases I posted.

Captain Seafort wrote:When a bloke far more intelligent than you or I (as demonstrated by his PhD in astrophysics) looks at an image and says "this ship is between length x and length y", I tend to pay attention


I am sure he did the humanly possible best. Some ships are just so rudimentary (no sightings at all, no description beside class name or just a wedge in the background) that it is simple impossible to be somewhat precise. That's all I am saying.

Captain Seafort wrote:No, that's finally been solved (due in large part to the work of the site you're bitching about).


Oh good. So how big is it? :lol: Now I don't think I was "bitching", maybe a bit dismissive and highly critical.

Captain Seafort wrote:Absolutely. Indeed, if C-canon got taken out things would be much easier to resolve, as we'd only have seven Imperial-era ship classes to worry about - four destroyers (Liberty, wingless Liberty, ISD and Tector), two cruisers (the Endor comm ship and Home One) and a battleship (Executor).


Ah well, if I understood it correctly and they go a completely independent route with the new films you can scratch most of the EU anyhow.
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Atekimogus » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:54 pm

Reliant121 wrote:The issue with that is there are games that pit them very much equally; Empire at War for example sees Mon Calamari warships taking on the ISD's in an equal capacity (and arguably having a marginal advantage).


Depends, in X-Wing/Tie Fighter they make a run for it as soon as they come toe to toe with them and are not on par, in SW:Rebellion they had to specifically design a new capital ship so that the rebels have a counter for an ISD.

It seems as time passes rebel capital ships appear to become stronger and stronger while the ISD is perceived as weaker and weaker. I completely attribute this to rebel fandom propaganda. :mrgreen: Ah well, seems the history is written by the victors even in a fantasy-universe :lol: .
I don't like that to be honest. Imperial personelle shows remarkable incompetence and if you take away their technological superiority they become a complete joke.

Captain Seafort wrote:The term "Super Star Destroyer" was only ever used by Ackbar, in a high-pressure situation, in a foreign language. In calmer moments it's universally referred to as a "command ship" - by Solo approaching Endor, and earlier by Palpatine.


Possible I suppose. However the term SSD is so commenly used throughout the EU.....it's as offical as it gets when talking EU imho. No problem though with calling it command ship.

Captain Seafort wrote:The further away a ship is, the smaller it will appear - it's taken decades of intensive search just to find dwarf planets in the outer reaches of our system, vastly larger than the Ex. Obviously SW technology sensor is far superior to our own, but it will still have a maximum resolution. Drop in beyond the range at which they can resolve the Ex, and they would have had a chance to creep in using the heavy asteroid activity as cover.


Well, this would then completely depend on how good their sensor actually are. Still, making a dash for the planet in hopes of catching them offguard and then - if it didn't work - making sure noone escapes the blockade seems just as viable as trying to sneak up on them in sublight with the Executor and still risking getting caught and with their pants down stuck in an asteroid field. Definetly not what I would call "choke-worthy" incompetence.


Captain Seafort wrote:Nonetheless, they are shown going head to head with ISDs, killing at least one by direct fire and bringing down the Ex's shields.


Well mainly they are shown "....not lasting long against those star destroyers". Honestly, I have no idea how long capital ship engagements are in the Star Wars universe, however given the time-frame of the film I can well imagine that if they had to do battle 20-30 minutes more they would have started to take heavy losses.
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Re: Are the Empire's actions legal?

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:09 pm

Atekimogus wrote:But isn't that very unlikely? Even if they held back large portions of their fleet, one would expect a mix of ships.


Not really - given the limited threat the rebels posed, what was needed to counter them weren't the big guns, but a large number of smaller ships, capable of deploying the greatest range of capabilities over the greatest possible volume.

As for Hoth for example, if the rebels really had something which could mean trouble for Star Destroyers it seams logical that they wouldn't just employ basically one ship plus escorts but rather a broader mix of available ship classes.


At Hoth they probably got caught out by a) the rebels having that ion cannon and b) Vader being either impatient or prescient in rushing in with his personal task group rather than gathering heavier forces for a full assult.

Well it isn't the troop complement that bothers me, you can stick people on any ship and even an U-boat can board a fishermen. It's more that it also carries 72 Figher/Bombercraft, 8 Shuttles, 15 Stormtrooper assault craft, 20 AT-AT walker, 30 AT-ST walker, a prefabricated garrison base etc. etc it's all listed in the wookiepedia article, which I finally got around to read.


Very impressive, but as I've already pointed out far smaller assault ships and carriers can carry far more fighters or troops.

it's roles are defined as destroyer (point for you), carrier AND command ship.


It's carrier role is minor compared to dedicated ships, and HMS Onslow was the "command ship" at the Battle of the Barents Sea.

So maybe there are imperial destroyers. Ships who soley perform the role of a destroyer. But a STAR destroyer seems to be the ultimate multi-purpose ship, performing pretty much every role you can think off


I don't see now these two roles are mutually exclusive

A Nebulon-B for that matter fits the description of the ships you refer to much better imho.


At a far lower level, they do much the same job.

Ackbar ordered to concentrate fire on the Executor. Piett ordered to reinforce the frontal batteries so nothing get's through. Now I took it as that they where both talking about fighter/bombers since reinforcing frontal battery fire wouldn't prevent capital ships from "getting through". And indeed seconds later an A-Wing comes through...


Piett probably was. Ackbar was talking about the big guns. That A-wing would have gone splat against the bridge shields if the rebel heavies hadn't already disabled them.

Yes, that was my mistake for not being more clear. I don't have a problem with the method of comparison, only with the impossibilty to do so on extremely undetailed pictures like the ones I linked. On those pictures you can hardly make out anything except the most rudimentary details. The contour lines are thicker than the supposed bridge at that detail level not even talking about windows where you could actually see where exactly the bridge ends.


As I said, you can't get precise measurements, but you can estimate the length within a km or so, based on how distinct the bridge is relative to the rest of the ship. Look at the examples I gave, for example - the ISD's bridge tower is a significant feature relative to the whole ship, and as such would be distinct even at the resolution we're talking about. On the Accusor, it's a barely noticeable bump. You can therefore get a rough idea of how big a ship is based on whether the tower is distinct or just a bump.

Oh good. So how big is it? :lol:


19km, according to the latest update. A bit bigger than Saxton's estimates actually, but close enough to the visual evidence to be reasonable, unlike the five and eight mile nonsense.

Ah well, if I understood it correctly and they go a completely independent route with the new films you can scratch most of the EU anyhow.


Or they'll try and tie themselves in even more knots trying to rationalise everything. :roll:
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