Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

[Captain Seafort]

When fighting an AT-AT, you don't have to stop it by destroying the whole thing. You can stop it by a shot to the cockpit or crippling one of its legs at knee joint. Taking out the cockpit being the better as it also takes out the weapons of the AT-AT.

Agreed. That's what Rogue Squadron did in Isard's Revenge, and they needed X-wings to do it. AT-ATs are tough bastards.

As to how they were equipped, if they could get their hands on an Ion Cannon the scale of the one on Hoth. Then there's no reason to believe they couldn't get their hands on some portable CM launchers.

That depends on how they got their hands on that cannon. If they simply pulled it off a wrecked Praetor as they did with the power core then there's no reason to suppose they'd be able to get their hands on effective anti-AT-AT weapons.

True enough, so why not fit the speeders with a warhead? The CIS used a CM for taking out AT-TEs and it was easily small enough to be fitted to a snowspeeder.

AT-TEs are far smaller than AT-ATs and, given that they're LAAT-deployable, probably much more lightly built. They're Strykers to the AT-AT's Abrams.

[Captain Seafort]

Again, I'm forced to say, "Two whole snubs against an ISD's worth of fighters?"

They don't need to beat them, or even hold them off really - just disrupt them long enough for the transports to get away. The fact that fewer than half the transports got away demonstrates just how hard the job was.

I'll repeat - why not then use them where they'll do something useful?

This goes back to the argument against starfighters operating under shields.

if we didn't see it, it either didn't exist or the Alliance decided not to use it.

I assume by "didn't exist" you're implicitly referring specifically to the kit available to the Alliance on Hoth rather than generally?

It's possible, but then again airspeeders were used with no qualms.

True, but airspeeders have an altitude ceiling. This may indicate that their repulsorlifts operate on slightly different principles to those of starfighters. Alternatively the problem might be linked to the main engines, given that whenever we've seen ships operating on repulsorlifts alone they've been sitting ducks. I repeat the point that the Imps made no effort to deploy TIEs in CAS for the walkers.

[Deepcrush]

Agreed. That's what Rogue Squadron did in Isard's Revenge, and they needed X-wings to do it. AT-ATs are tough bastards.

If you have X-wings to use then its generally going to be the better choice.

That depends on how they got their hands on that cannon. If they simply pulled it off a wrecked Praetor as they did with the power core then there's no reason to suppose they'd be able to get their hands on effective anti-AT-AT weapons.

I highly doubt that thing was mounted on a ship short of a Super Star Destroyer. A few bursts were strong enough to cripple (at the time) state-of-the-art Imperial cruiser and keep a squadron of said cruisers PLUS a battleship at bay. Not a chance that Ion Cannon was anything short of a planetary defense system at some point. The power needed to overload an ISD's shields and threaten Vader's entire squadron is way above being simply pulled off of something.

AT-TEs are far smaller than AT-ATs and, given that they're LAAT-deployable, probably much more lightly built. They're Strykers to the AT-AT's Abrams.

Even so, just as is with an Abrams... you don't have to destroy it out right. Just have to cripple it so that you can attack it at a time and in a fashion of your choosing.

[Mikey]

I assume by "didn't exist" you're implicitly referring specifically to the kit available to the Alliance on Hoth rather than generally?

Umm... OK, if that helps. In this facet of the discussion, we're discussing man-pack weapons capable of threatening an AT-AT. Since the rebels were able to equip their troops with all other typical field kit, logistics concerning man-pack equipment doesn't seem to be an issue. Since there were no such things used by the Alliance on Hoth, then, we are led to either: they didn't exist or the Alliance chose not to use them. It is completely immaterial whether "didn't exist" means in the scope of the Hoth battle, or in general. However, I will say that there appeared nowhere in any form in any of the films a man-pack weapon capable of threatening an AT-AT.

True, but airspeeders have an altitude ceiling. This may indicate that their repulsorlifts operate on slightly different principles to those of starfighters. Alternatively the problem might be linked to the main engines, given that whenever we've seen ships operating on repulsorlifts alone they've been sitting ducks.

And if my grandmother had balls, she'd have been my grandfather. Now we're getting into the nebulous vortex of debating the "real" physics of fantastical, magic machinery, and as such the realm of pure conjecture. You certainly could be right; there could be a complete ass-pull of a reason concerning the amount of made-up-ium in Hoth's atmosphere; the Alliance could have considered their X-wings more valuable than their boots.

I repeat the point that the Imps made no effort to deploy TIEs in CAS for the walkers.

And it may be a fair point, but we can't assume that inability to deploy is the main or only reason for failure to deploy. We all know from various and sundry examples that strict tactical common sense isn't the prime motivator for the way the Empire does things; the sight of a squadron of AT-AT's advancing alone, inexorably, across the landscape outside the scope of a "proper" military advance in-theater is something which the Empire would relish for its own merits.

[Captain Seafort]

If you have X-wings to use then its generally going to be the better choice.

If you can.

I highly doubt that thing was mounted on a ship short of a Super Star Destroyer....The power needed to overload an ISD's shields and threaten Vader's entire squadron is way above being simply pulled off of something.

A Praetor-class Star Battlecruiser isn't much smaller than the Executor. Certainly we know that its reactor is powerful enough to run a shield strong enough to cause even the Ex problems given that that's what was powering Echo Base. I would, however, dispute the notion that the ion cannon threatened the entire squadron - knocking out an ISD is a far easier job than knocking out something a hundred times the size.

Even so, just as is with an Abrams... you don't have to destroy it out right. Just have to cripple it so that you can attack it at a time and in a fashion of your choosing.

Indeed, but the point I'm making is that to do even that to an AT-AT requires X-wing firepower, far more than anything the speeders or light artillery the rebels had could muster

[Deepcrush]

If you can.

If is always the question. But even a pair of X-Wings hovering or sitting in some cover where they can fire off a few PTs or CMs. You don't need them to fly, just to be planted on some high ground.

A Praetor-class Star Battlecruiser isn't much smaller than the Executor. Certainly we know that its reactor is powerful enough to run a shield strong enough to cause even the Ex problems given that that's what was powering Echo Base. I would, however, dispute the notion that the ion cannon threatened the entire squadron - knocking out an ISD is a far easier job than knocking out something a hundred times the size.

Then why didn't the Executor just move to block the escape path?

[Captain Seafort]

If is always the question. But even a pair of X-Wings hovering or sitting in some cover where they can fire off a few PTs or CMs. You don't need them to fly, just to be planted on some high ground.

Whereupon the AT-ATs slaughter them. They were able to hit even the occasional snowspeeder with snap shots, X-wings sitting stationary on a hill would be easy targets.

Then why didn't the Executor just move to block the escape path?

Possibly Piett being overcautious, possibly they did and that's what plugged the leak and caused the very high casualties despite the Tyrant being as useful as a chocolate fireguard. They might still have managed to slip one or two out around the far side of the planet, but with the ion cannon unable to clear a path their chances would have been far slimmer.

[Deepcrush]

Whereupon the AT-ATs slaughter them. They were able to hit even the occasional snowspeeder with snap shots, X-wings sitting stationary on a hill would be easy targets.

At the loss of a squadron of X-Wings or even just their launchers strapped to a sled. You can halt the advance of an entire Imperial division and protect the escape of the bulk of the Rebel forces at the base. To me, that's a worthy expense.

Possibly Piett being overcautious, possibly they did and that's what plugged the leak and caused the very high casualties despite the Tyrant being as useful as a chocolate fireguard. They might still have managed to slip one or two out around the far side of the planet, but with the ion cannon unable to clear a path their chances would have been far slimmer.

Good points, but the whole situation would be avoided for the Rebels if they had protected the shield generator against more then just snowballs.

[Captain Seafort]

At the loss of a squadron of X-Wings or even just their launchers strapped to a sled. You can halt the advance of an entire Imperial division and protect the escape of the bulk of the Rebel forces at the base. To me, that's a worthy expense.

Not just "a squadron of X-wings" (as if there is such a thing - X-wings were a scare resource for the rebels), Rogue Squadron, the elite of the Rebel Alliance. All the ground defence could ever hope to achieve was to buy time to allow the evacuation to proceed. While destroying the AT-AT's would have helped achieve that objective, you're suggesting doing it at the cost of one of the Alliance's most important assets - its subfighters, and the Rogues at that.

Good points, but the whole situation would be avoided for the Rebels if they had protected the shield generator against more then just snowballs.

It was protected well enough to hold off the whole of Death Squadron. As for the AT-AT, how well do you expect it to hold out against high kT-low Mt firepower?

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Agreed. That's what Rogue Squadron did in Isard's Revenge, and they needed X-wings to do it. AT-ATs are tough bastards.

Thank you! I was just about to go check my X-wing novels to see which one that happened in.

Anyway, my two credits? Have the X-wings circle wide if possible and flank the walkers if possible before blasting off to escort the freighters.

[Mark]

Well, I've got a theory about the fighters not being used.

The frigid tempatures, the high winds, the ice and snow may have combined to make using fighters impossible. I mean, a fighter is designed for space travel. Could be possible that they keep icing over the heat sink, frosting the cockpit, so on and so forth.

However, stripping a couple of photorp launchers off a damaged ship would have held the Imp Walkers back indefinately.

[Mikey]

Ummm... as you say, fighters are meant to, and constantly DO, operate in space. No matter how cold Hoth is, it ain't colder than space.

[Captain Seafort]

No matter how cold Hoth is, it ain't colder than space.

It is, however, a significantly different challenge in that freezing, rather than overheating, is the main problem. Don't forget that it's far more difficult to shed heat in space than in an atmosphere, since in the former case you can only do so through radiation, while in the latter case convection and conduction are options.

[Mikey]

Indeed - which would make atmo operations easier for a space fighter. The only downside I can think of is the moisture in the air - icing surfaces, etc. However, one would guess that an X-wing generates enough heat during normal operations to counteract that, though we of course don't know the waste heat of an X-wing powerplant, the conductivity of the mystery metals used in their construction, etc.

[Captain Seafort]

Indeed - which would make atmo operations easier for a space fighter.

In most cases, sure. On Hoth they might not be able to operate due to the cold - as spacecraft they'd be designed primarily to shed heat, not retain it.