Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Deepcrush » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:25 am

Was watching the trilogy, again, last week and just came around to the issue of Hoth. While its nice that its so far out of the way. I can't help but be bothered by the amount of effort they put into building what was in truth a permanent base. To me this is a horrid mistake when you're on the run from the Empire. You should have a large number of small bases to prevent the Empire from being able to land a crippling strike against you so soon after the major victory that was the Deathstar I destruction.

Follow this up with the land battle. Why weren't their ground defenses put up with the thought of facing enemy armor? They had a massive anti-infantry defense but totally forgot that the Imps may just march on them with ATATs rather then an infantry charge.
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby stitch626 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:37 am

Don't know much other than the movies when it comes to the OT, but I'll give a little.

Perhaps the rebels were unaware of the ATAT's true abilities and strength (or unaware of it all together).


As for the base... perhaps they thought it was far enough out of the way and deserted enough that they would not be found. Wasn't it a lucky probe droid that found them (I cannot remember if they knew the rebels were on Hoth before or after the droid found them)?

Either way though, it was a rather poor choice (as a perminant base, great as a backup temporary hiding spot).
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Deepcrush » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:39 am

It was a probe droid that Vader looked into and picked out as the right location.
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Deepcrush » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:45 am

For me the problem with the ATATs is that some of those Generals must have seen Armour before. Its not a new invention or anything... So why didn't they put some Y-Wings in the air to aid against the ATATs?
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Mikey » Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:01 am

I think the problem was how entrenched the guerilla mindset came to be in the heads of the Alliance. Hoth was a good hidey-hole in the sense that nobody would spend much effort looking for people there; but the resources required to set up even a long-term temporary base, much less a permanent one, in that environment must border on the ludicrous. Maybe that's why the defenses were so inadequate - there was no money left after the tunnels were dug and the heaters installed. Whatever the reason, you are correct - a handful of converted airspeeders is almost laughably moronic as defenses against the presumably well-known Imperial infantry capabilities.
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby McAvoy » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:56 am

What gets me is that they didn't have any heavy weapons remotely close to defending the base from ground attack. Granted the Rebels had to make due with what they got but they had a huge ion cannon ball thingy.
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Deepcrush » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:54 am

You would think a couple of fighters with PTs or some man portable CM launchers would have been in order.
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Mikey » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:34 am

Indeed. I was half-joking about running out of money, though I was serious about the exorbitant expense of making a base on a place like Hoth; but if they were able to install shielding like they did, one would expect that they could have included a couple of anti-armor launchers or something.

:? Wait a minute... they had at least a wing of X-wings, which are capable of atmo flight and carry proton torps. It was even said in the film that an escort of two X-wings per transport was ineffectually small, which is common-sense anyway when trying to defend the transport from an ISD. Why wasn't there an anti-AT-AT sortie of a squadron or two?
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Sonic Glitch » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:01 pm

If I remember the film correctly it always seemed to me that for the X-Wings it was, they could escort the transport ship OR they could fight the AT-ATs. Since the leaderships priority was on the evacuation, it would make sense to focus their efforts there. Regardless of how well-defended the base is (i.e. how great their anti-armor capabilities were), it doesn't change the fact that they were found out and would've lost anyway. I'm pretty sure the infantry had very little illusions about coming outof the battle alive. Certainly they were going to try of course, but deep down they knew they weren't fighting to win.

Also, does anyone know how long things had been set up on Hoth? It could be the anti-armor weapons weren't going to arrive until "Tuesday," or something along those lines.
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Tyyr » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:20 pm

Even if your priority was the evac why not have the X-Wings launch two minutes early, take one pass over the AT-ATs with their PTs and then link up with the transport when it lifts off?
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Mikey » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:35 pm

Sonic Glitch wrote:they could escort the transport ship OR they could fight the AT-ATs.


Exactly my point. Since an escort of two X-wings vs. one (or more) ISD's is tantamount to throwing a warm snowball at an M1, why not opt for the latter choice where they could actually have a positive effect?
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Deepcrush » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:23 pm

Honestly, I would have preferred the man portable CMs in support of a single pair of fighters in Atmo. Forcing the Imps to advance on foot from as far away as they landed would have cut the losses for the Rebels. Plus would have bought them time to evac the troops that they didn't lose.
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Captain Seafort » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:40 pm

stitch626 wrote:Perhaps the rebels were unaware of the ATAT's true abilities and strength (or unaware of it all together).


AT-AT's had been around since the Clone Wars, so they'd have been aware of them. The most likely answer is that they either couldn't afford or couldn't obtain the necessary weapons.

Mikey wrote:Exactly my point. Since an escort of two X-wings vs. one (or more) ISD's is tantamount to throwing a warm snowball at an M1, why not opt for the latter choice where they could actually have a positive effect?


Against an ISD, sure, but that's what the ion cannon was for. The X-wings were probably there to cover the transports against fighter interference.

Deepcrush wrote:Honestly, I would have preferred the man portable CMs in support of a single pair of fighters in Atmo.


We don't know whether manportable firepower exists that can stop an AT-AT. Isard's Revenge demonstrated that even X-Wing laser cannon (the same cannon that vapourised big chunks of the Death Star in ANH) will only do relatively minor damage, although they can bring AT-AT's down. Given how poorly equipped the rebels were at the time (they were extremely lucky to get their hands on X-wings), I doubt they'd be able to obtain ground-mounted weapons with that sort of firepower.

As for using the X-wings, it's possible that they couldn't be used under the shield - note that the Imperials provided no air support to their forces whatsoever.
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Deepcrush » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:53 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:We don't know whether manportable firepower exists that can stop an AT-AT. Isard's Revenge demonstrated that even X-Wing laser cannon (the same cannon that vapourised big chunks of the Death Star in ANH) will only do relatively minor damage, although they can bring AT-AT's down. Given how poorly equipped the rebels were at the time (they were extremely lucky to get their hands on X-wings), I doubt they'd be able to obtain ground-mounted weapons with that sort of firepower.


When fighting an AT-AT, you don't have to stop it by destroying the whole thing. You can stop it by a shot to the cockpit or crippling one of its legs at knee joint. Taking out the cockpit being the better as it also takes out the weapons of the AT-AT.

As to how they were equipped, if they could get their hands on an Ion Cannon the scale of the one on Hoth. Then there's no reason to believe they couldn't get their hands on some portable CM launchers.

Captain Seafort wrote:As for using the X-wings, it's possible that they couldn't be used under the shield - note that the Imperials provided no air support to their forces whatsoever.


True enough, so why not fit the speeders with a warhead? The CIS used a CM for taking out AT-TEs and it was easily small enough to be fitted to a snowspeeder.
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Re: Battle of the Week : Battle of Hoth

Postby Mikey » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:01 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:Against an ISD, sure, but that's what the ion cannon was for. The X-wings were probably there to cover the transports against fighter interference.


Again, I'm forced to say, "Two whole snubs against an ISD's worth of fighters?" Even the rebels thought it was a ridiculously - and uselessly - small escort complement. If you know that your X-wings are going to do sweet F. A. as escorts, I'll repeat - why not then use them where they'll do something useful?

Captain Seafort wrote:We don't know whether manportable firepower exists that can stop an AT-AT.


In fact, we can guardedly assume from Hoth that man-pack firepower that can stop an AT-AT doesn't exist. Man-pack firepower is just about all the Alliance could have hoped for, and what we could reasonably expect to see - if we didn't see it, it either didn't exist or the Alliance decided not to use it. I fervently hope and pray that the latter isn't the case.

Captain Seafort wrote:As for using the X-wings, it's possible that they couldn't be used under the shield


It's possible, but then again airspeeders were used with no qualms. Those speeders weren't strictly repulsor-powered, so any restriction imposed by the shield against the snubfighters should apply to the airspeeders as well.
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