Deepcrush wrote:It's putting a lot on a novel set that has proven so untrustworthy over time
Deepcrush wrote:Then statements not the numbers of cap ships at Endor Moon being in the hundreds.
Failure to identify ship classes.
Deepcrush wrote:1, what there should be and what there was are two different things. If the rebels had as many as three dozen cap ships in total I'd be impressed. The Imps had ISD 1's and 2's with one SSD numbering about fifty. Again it would would shock me if the number of total capships reached triple digits or even close.
ISDs being called destroyers, no in the sense that it is the design model... But that they are really Destroyer Class.
As in being the same scale as the VicStar.
This is in spite of three film lines and the databank and GL himself saying otherwise.
Another being the toughness of fighters, x-wings shrugging off hits that would have destroyed them times over in ANH. Or the "fodder TIE" issues that later came.
Again, I dont the film novel as being of anymore value then EU. While rated above EU, it remains unreliable at best.
Captain Seafort wrote:You didn't read my post properly. I'd be surprised if there were more than 60 SDs and Mon Cals. However capships, per the EGVV, are all combat starships over 100m long. Therefore all the blockade runners, Neb-Bs and other ships the Alliance brought along would be counted, as would any Carracks, Strikes, Interdictors, etc, in the Imperial fleet. I would not be surprised, therefore, if there were hundreds of capships present.
Captain Seafort wrote:So the novel is referring to them by formal designation, rather than slang as Solo did.
Captain Seafort wrote:Says who? The A-class was half the size of a Gearing, but they were both destroyers.
One of which was Solo referring to an unidentified class (and referred to as Corellian, not Kuati as ISDs are), another was after a quick glance out of the window which could have been either a case of misidentification or referring to them in the generic sense that any ship capable of independent operations is a cruiser. Which was the third?
In any event, we do not have the explicit contradiction required to overrule the various sources identifying Imperial/Imperator-class Star Destroyers as cruisers.
Nonetheless, where there is no direct contradiction the books are canon, and more so than the EU, subordinate only to the films themselves.
Deepcrush wrote:Minus we saw the whole Rebel fleet jump
Slang??? He ID'd them by sensor, visual contact and prior reference... thats not slang.
Great, now show how the Vicstar is only "half" the size of the ISD
Solo, reading the sensors says "Imperial Cruisers".
The databank and canon tree state the ISDs are Cruisers.
The third issue with saying that ALL SDs are Destroyers is that Vader, in ESB, calls for his "Star Destoyer" which was an SSD. Unless you're planning to say that now SSD are only Destroyer sized craft.
You've been crying over this for two years now. Time to grow up a little bit.
The films, the cast, the databank and the creator of the Universe... that counts as "explicit".
Which is the problem as the Novels are constantly showing their crap
Captain Seafort wrote:No we didn't.
Captain Seafort wrote:The means by which he identified them is irrelevant. He referred to them using a slang term.
Captain Seafort wrote:Why? I've shown that ships can be significantly different in size while still being the same type.
Captain Seafort wrote:So are Blockade runner, so's the Ex. Already covered.
Captain Seafort wrote:The DB is lower canon than ESB, which explicitly calls then Star Destroyers. Cruiser is a term for all indepentently operating ships, as I've already pointed out
Captain Seafort wrote:We know that Exs are colloquially known as "Super Star Destroyers". Given that Vader was pretty upset at the time, it's hardly surprising that correct terminology wasn't his foremost concern.
Captain Seafort wrote:Projection much?
Captain Seafort wrote:No, it's evidence that they're sometimes called cruisers, which they are in the broad sense of the term.
Captain Seafort wrote:Tough. Unless there's an explicit contradiction (i.e. "Star Destroyers are not destroyer-type vessels") they stand.
Deepcrush wrote:Yes we did, in the film.
Prove it then. All of the canon sources confirm what he says, so prove them all wrong.
You've shown two ships, from two different powers.
Really, Solo called the Blockade Runner an Imperial Cruiser...
they are Cruisers of the Star Destroyer line, just the same as the Victory, Venator, Acclamator, Imperial, Executor designed by the Wessex family.
Solo and Vader and Databank and GL are all wrong because... they were upset???
Its evidence that they are CALLED cruisers since thats what they are in fact called.
Captain Seafort wrote:No, we didn't - we saw elements of the fleet jump, but since there were far more ships at Endor than in the jump scene, we obviously didn't see all of them jump.
Captain Seafort wrote:I've already done so many times over. Every single technical description of an Imperial-class Star Destroyer refers to them as such. They are never referred to as cruisers in any technical work
Captain Seafort wrote:Irrelevant. I have shown that ships of significantly different sizes are both of the same type. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp, but apparently it is for you.
Captain Seafort wrote:No, but since they're capable of independent operation, they are cruisers.
Captain Seafort wrote:Vic, Vens, and Imps are all destroyers, and have never been described as anything else in a technical work. Ex is described as a Star Dreadnought in technical works. Accies are described as assault ships in technical works.
Captain Seafort wrote:Vader was upset. The others were simply using generic terms.
Captain Seafort wrote:Yes, no one's disputing the fact that they've been called cruisers. However, this term covers any ship capable of independent operation. The formal designation of the Vic, Ven and Imp is "Star Destroyer". Vessels smaller than them (such as the Vindicator-class) are desgnated Star Frigates. Vessels larger than them are designated Star Cruisers. Vessels larger than those are designated Star Battleships, or Star Battlecruisers. The largest vessels are designated Star Dreadnoughts.
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