Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

[Deepcrush]

Sadly, a lot of my generation have never heard of either.

Which is part of the issue here.

[Mikey]

One pro and one con I've just noticed:

Maybe, but in a Galactic wide conflict when there were thousands of Jedi, thousands of other generals and admirals, and with the Emperor taking the credit for the victory and largely blanking out the Jedi. Its rather easy to consider that Luke never came across Kenobi.

This is a valid point. I don't know if it was ever mentioned explicitly in the EU, but one could very easily envision Palps completely suppressing all knowledge of the Jedi after the Purge... you know, like the Jedi did with the Sith.

Wrong, Independent Affiliate doesn't indicate anything other then they were apart from the Empire, didn't challenge the Empire, and the Empire left them alone. If it were a client state, it would have said client state.

This one, not so much. "Affiliate" means "affiliated," not "passingly familiar."

[Deepcrush]

This one, not so much. "Affiliate" means "affiliated," not "passingly familiar."

I didn't say passingly familiar.

[Sonic Glitch]

Again the question is why would he. Some EU stuff says Luke like playing on the internet. I doubt that makes him an expert on Galactic history.

Me neither. However, there's a difference between being an expert on galactic history and recognising the name of of one of the most famous commanders of the Clone Wars. It's the equivalent of never having heard of Rommel or Montgomery.

Speaking as a member of the age-group that Luke would be in ANH (19/20 right?), that's not exactly hard. I know plenty of people who would not recognize those names if they came up in casual conversation, or a news article somewhere.

As Mikey said, it wouldn't be beyond Palpatine to erase all references to the victorious Jedi in his New Order.

[Captain Seafort]

You mean other then blowing up two Death Stars, score after score of planetary raids, built a fleet right under the nose of the Empire... Sounds pretty damn successful.

Oh, like the end of the Rebellion? What if there were hundreds or thousands of systems in revolt? You know, like at the end of the Empire when it fell to the Rebellion? The end of RotJ, where systems across the Empire have risen up. Like that kind of evidence... the Film itself right?

Read what I wrote - I'm talking about the pre-Endor Empire, when the Rebellion was no more than a minor nuisance. Post-Endor the whole thing fragmented.

Maybe, but in a Galactic wide conflict when there were thousands of Jedi, thousands of other generals and admirals, and with the Emperor taking the credit for the victory and largely blanking out the Jedi. Its rather easy to consider that Luke never came across Kenobi.

True, there were thousands of senior commanders, and some of them were certainly glossed over, but Kenobi and Skywalker were far more than just another pair of Generals. They were legends in their own lifetime, household names across the Republic. Sweeping those two under the rug would have been impossible within the couple of decades between the Clone Wars and the OT.

No, being able to land troops on foreign lands doesn't mean you control those lands. The US lands troops all the time in other countries, the British Empire did so before as well. Neither controlled every place they landed.

No. However, the key bit is the fact that there was no resistance whatsoever, and the stormies presence was treated by the locals as that of a police force, not as invaders.

Wrong, Independent Affiliate doesn't indicate anything other then they were apart from the Empire, didn't challenge the Empire, and the Empire left them alone. If it were a client state, it would have said client state.

Bullshit. As Mikey pointed out, the use of the term "affiliate" means they were affiliated to the Empire, not completely independent of it.

Again, you're claiming they paid taxes, that the Hutts weren't separate of the Empire, evidence?

The Essential Atlas.

Yes, Lando informs Han and Leia that Bespin isn't apart of the Empire. That they run a free operation in a free system. Leia instantly asks if he's a part of the Merchants' Guild.

Mining Guild. Fair enough regarding the point of the independence of those operations, although that reads more like a case of the Empire lacking the legal right to nationalise Mining Guild instillations rather than the MG controlling any meaningful territory. Lando's exact comment was that "since we're a small operation we don't fall under the jurisdiction of the Empire". This suggests that above a certain size, such instillations do fall under Imperial jurisdiction.

[Captain Seafort]

Speaking as a member of the age-group that Luke would be in ANH (19/20 right?), that's not exactly hard. I know plenty of people who would not recognize those names if they came up in casual conversation, or a news article somewhere.

You're not the age group Luke was part of. Your parents or grandparents would have been the best part of half a century ago.

[Reliant121]

To be fair, there was some 19 years between the formation of the Empire and the Battle of Yavin. I certainly don't know of any major generals or figureheads of the Gulf War for example, and most of the people my age don't even know that it happened.

[Captain Seafort]

To be fair, there was some 19 years between the formation of the Empire and the Battle of Yavin. I certainly don't know of any major generals or figureheads of the Gulf War for example, and most of the people my age don't even know that it happened.

The Gulf War didn't last three years and trash half the planet.

[Deepcrush]

Read what I wrote - I'm talking about the pre-Endor Empire, when the Rebellion was no more than a minor nuisance. Post-Endor the whole thing fragmented.

So we should ignore their successes only because it doesn't support your opinion of the unbeatable Empire. For some reason, I just feel the need to laugh at this.

True, there were thousands of senior commanders, and some of them were certainly glossed over, but Kenobi and Skywalker were far more than just another pair of Generals. They were legends in their own lifetime, household names across the Republic. Sweeping those two under the rug would have been impossible within the couple of decades between the Clone Wars and the OT.

Household names? Legends in their own life times? Weren't they largely able to move about undetected in their own life times... Seems thats not to household of a person if they can walk through their own capital world and people don't know them. I would love to see some evidence that says they were what you claim.

No. However, the key bit is the fact that there was no resistance whatsoever, and the stormies presence was treated by the locals as that of a police force, not as invaders.

Considering the outcome on that world, saying their was no resistance is kind of silly. Since by all views that I've seen that planet was owned by the Hutts and the Empire and Hutts were happy to leave each other alone since it benefited them to keep the other around.

Bullshit. As Mikey pointed out, the use of the term "affiliate" means they were affiliated to the Empire, not completely independent of it.

I'm affiliated with the University of Maryland... yet I'm rather independent of them so long as I'm not pissing on their lawn. Much the same with the Hapes and the Empire.

The Essential Atlas.

Naming the title of a book that uses Wookiee as part of its source guild is first off useless as it doesn't prove anything to your point and second off is about as trustworthy as you are considering the number of mistakes in the book.

So how about posting some real evidence such as a canon statement of tax collection by the Empire from the Hutts.

Mining Guild. Fair enough regarding the point of the independence of those operations, although that reads more like a case of the Empire lacking the legal right to nationalise Mining Guild instillations rather than the MG controlling any meaningful territory. Lando's exact comment was that "since we're a small operation we don't fall under the jurisdiction of the Empire". This suggests that above a certain size, such instillations do fall under Imperial jurisdiction.

So then they are independent of the Empire as I stated. Shortly after the statement by Lando about not being a part of the Empire, Han asks him if the Empire will ever find out about them. Meaning that the Empire likely didn't know about the place until they followed Han and Leia there.

[Captain Seafort]

So we should ignore their successes

I'm saying we should treat their successes for what they were - minor insect bites.

Household names? Legends in their own life times? Weren't they largely able to move about undetected in their own life times... Seems thats not to household of a person if they can walk through their own capital world and people don't know them. I would love to see some evidence that says they were what you claim.

The RotS novelization.

Considering the outcome on that world, saying their was no resistance is kind of silly.

The outcome was that the planet was under the firm control of the Empire. One smuggler taking a few potshots at a stormie and managing to dodge the blockade does not constitute resistance.

Since by all views that I've seen that planet was owned by the Hutts

As of TPM, sure. ANH demonstrates that by that time the situation had changed.

I'm affiliated with the University of Maryland... yet I'm rather independent of them so long as I'm not pissing on their lawn. Much the same with the Hapes and the Empire.

You're not a political entity controlling territory.

Naming the title of a book that uses Wookiee as part of its source guild is first off useless as it doesn't prove anything to your point and second off is about as trustworthy as you are considering the number of mistakes in the book.

You (entirely reasonably) wanted my source, I gave you it.

So how about posting some real evidence such as a canon statement of tax collection by the Empire from the Hutts.

I don't have the exact quote, merely that the fact is mentioned in the EA.

So then they are independent of the Empire as I stated. Shortly after the statement by Lando about not being a part of the Empire, Han asks him if the Empire will ever find out about them. Meaning that the Empire likely didn't know about the place until they followed Han and Leia there.

It's not part of the Empire in the same way some gold panner in the Sierra Nevadas isn't "part of" the US.

[stitch626]

Just looked in the local phone book, and there are 5 Montgomerys. No Rommels though.

Also 1 Hussein.



BTW, in this context, who the heck are Montgomery and Rommel?

[Mikey]

Just looked in the local phone book, and there are 5 Montgomerys. No Rommels though.

Also 1 Hussein.



BTW, in this context, who the heck are Montgomery and Rommel?

Really? *sigh* Kids these days...
Erwin Rommel
*ED: Probably the most skilled, and decent, German officer of WWII, who was often disregarded by Hitler because he wasn't a Nazi. Good thing for us, because he might just have won the war for Germany if he'd been listened to.*
Bernard Montgomery, the commander who won Northern Africa for the Allies.

[Tyyr]

Bernard Montgomery, because he might just have lost the war for the Allies if we'd been listened to him.

[Sonic Glitch]

Bernard Montgomery, because he might just have lost the war for the Allies if we'd been listened to him.

Trying to advance a tank army up a two lane, oftentimes elevated, highway? Yeah... Interesting idea, but not really practical.

[Deepcrush]

I'm saying we should treat their successes for what they were - minor insect bites.

Those insect bites joined together to bring down a galactic Empire.

The RotS novelization.

So, if you're telling the truth then they may have been house hold names twenty years ago before the Empire took power and began editing records. That is rather different from being a household name twenty years later on a desert world on a so far out that even the Empire nor its Hutt owners really bothered with any kind of local enforcement.

The outcome was that the planet was under the firm control of the Empire. One smuggler taking a few potshots at a stormie and managing to dodge the blockade does not constitute resistance.

No, the outcome is that one of the planet's cities had an Imperial detachment on it. That is not "firm" control.

As of TPM, sure. ANH demonstrates that by that time the situation had changed.

Sure, I'll believe this when you provide a film statement declaring such. Otherwise, a few Stormtroopers doesn't qualify as a change to planet ownership.

You're not a political entity controlling territory.

I am in fact a home owner with a declared loyalty to a political entity.

You (entirely reasonably) wanted my source, I gave you it.

Then if a book cover and pointing finger is all you have, then your point is invalid. While you may suspect from your view a partly usable source, it does not however provide fact.

I don't have the exact quote, merely that the fact is mentioned in the EA.

Then this, as stated above, would be what you suspect and not what in fact "is".

It's not part of the Empire in the same way some gold panner in the Sierra Nevadas isn't "part of" the US.

He would in fact be a part of the US as in order to have rights to access natural resources he would have to be a Citizen.