Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Deepcrush » Wed May 11, 2011 3:37 pm

Considering that whole sectors being apart from the Empire, even just at the Mid Rim, it in fact does.
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Tyyr » Wed May 11, 2011 4:41 pm

Except for the fact that even you admit that a sector in Star Wars is like a county... hell, less than a county, in the US. Yes, one county may lose it's shit but in the grand scheme of things it means very little. A few small pockets of independence is useful to the Empire. They make convenient enemies when you need them.
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Deepcrush » Wed May 11, 2011 5:48 pm

Okay and... what? I never said that they made up the bulk of the galaxy or that the Independents equaled the Empire in anything.

The point still remains that whole sectors in even the Mid Rim remained independent of the Empire. That the groups were able to survive the Empire even at its peak, and that the groups like the Mon Cal were in fact able to use those resources to build a fleet. That Hutt space, reaching from Shola and Nal Hutta all the way to Tatooine were largely unchallenged.

Considering this, my statement that started this issue doesn't lose ground. The idea that as much at a fifth of the Outer Rim remained outside the Empire is fully possible.
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed May 11, 2011 10:36 pm

Deepcrush wrote:The point still remains that whole sectors in even the Mid Rim remained independent of the Empire. That the groups were able to survive the Empire even at its peak


The only group that could be even remotely described as "surviving" the Empire were the Mon Cals. All the others were Imperial client states.

groups like the Mon Cal were in fact able to use those resources to build a fleet.


A "fleet" that was completely outmatched by a single sector fleet reinforced by Death Squadron..

That Hutt space, reaching from Shola and Nal Hutta all the way to Tatooine were largely unchallenged.


Nal Hutta and Nar Shadda may have been largely left alone (note: this does not mean they would have been able to do anything had the Empire decided to take notice of them). Hutt space was not, however, anything like as expansive as it was under the Republic. Take Tatooine, for example. It was firmly under the control of the Empire, as ANH amply demonstrated.

The idea that as much at a fifth of the Outer Rim remained outside the Empire is fully possible.


No, it isn't. See above regarding the extent of Outer and Bright Jewel Oversectors.
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Deepcrush » Wed May 11, 2011 10:46 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:The only group that could be even remotely described as "surviving" the Empire were the Mon Cals. All the others were Imperial client states.


You mean other then the Hutts, or Merchants Guild or Bespin or Hapes... other then them right... and all the other not named systems or sectors.

Captain Seafort wrote:A "fleet" that was completely outmatched by a single sector fleet reinforced by Death Squadron..


Thats right, the ships from a single system required a reinforced Sector Fleet to handle them. The Hapes had several hundred warships in their Sector. These issues add up over time.

Captain Seafort wrote:Nal Hutta and Nar Shadda may have been largely left alone (note: this does not mean they would have been able to do anything had the Empire decided to take notice of them). Hutt space was not, however, anything like as expansive as it was under the Republic. Take Tatooine, for example. It was firmly under the control of the Empire, as ANH amply demonstrated.


Tatooine showed no signs of Imperial presence until ANH. It was safe enough that Obi-Wan used his own name, as did Skywalker, and no one noticed they were there. If anything that says Tatooine was in fact independent of the Empire.

Captain Seafort wrote:No, it isn't. See above regarding the extent of Outer and Bright Jewel Oversectors.


Saw it, and it added nothing to the topic of the amount of the Out Rim that remained outside of the Empire.
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed May 11, 2011 11:09 pm

Deepcrush wrote:You mean other then the Hutts, or Merchants Guild or Bespin or Hapes... other then them right... and all the other not named systems or sectors.


No, I'm talking about the Hutts, MG, Bespin, Hapes, et al. The Empire let them get on with life without micromanaging their affairs, but Vader demonstrated quite effectively how much real independence they had in ESB.

Thats right, the ships from a single system required a reinforced Sector Fleet to handle them. The Hapes had several hundred warships in their Sector. These issues add up over time.


Deep, the Empire could drop a sector fleet into a black hole and not notice. The Mon Cal shipyards were utterly pathetic by the standards of KDY, or Fondor, or Corellia.

Tatooine showed no signs of Imperial presence until ANH. It was safe enough that Obi-Wan used his own name, as did Skywalker, and no one noticed they were there. If anything that says Tatooine was in fact independent of the Empire.


1) We don't know how common the names "Kenobi" or "Skywalker" are. The fact that Luke, despite being an avid reader of the holonet, didn't immediately link either "Ben" Kenobi or even Obi Wan Kenobi with the Negotiator, even when he learned Obi Wan had fought in the Clone Wars, and that he was able to apply to the Imperial Academy without Vader and half the fleet showing up, suggests they're probably the SW equivalent of Smith and Jones.

2) Have you watched ANH? Whether or not there was a standing Imperial presence is irrelevant. What matters is the fact that Tantive IV showed up, dropped an escape pod, and Mos Eisley was crawling with stormies in five second flat. That is not an independent system, it's simply one the Empire doesn't give enough of a shit about to give it a permanent garrison.

Saw it, and it added nothing to the topic of the amount of the Out Rim that remained outside of the Empire.


It demonstrates that the "vast majority" of the Outer Rim was under the control of a single Imperial Oversector. It demonstrates that hundreds of additional sectors in the region were under the control of another Oversector. How exactly do you reconcile such statements with your fantasy of 20% of the Rim being independent?
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Deepcrush » Wed May 11, 2011 11:34 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:No, I'm talking about the Hutts, MG, Bespin, Hapes, et al. The Empire let them get on with life without micromanaging their affairs, but Vader demonstrated quite effectively how much real independence they had in ESB.


The US has that kind of control over much of the Earth. However the US doesn't own the whole of the Earth. Its much the same here.

Captain Seafort wrote:Deep, the Empire could drop a sector fleet into a black hole and not notice. The Mon Cal shipyards were utterly pathetic by the standards of KDY, or Fondor, or Corellia.


I never said anything along the lines of a "single sector changing the Empire". However that doesn't change that sectors could in fact cause issue for the Empire.

Captain Seafort wrote:1) We don't know how common the names "Kenobi" or "Skywalker" are. The fact that Luke, despite being an avid reader of the holonet, didn't immediately link either "Ben" Kenobi or even Obi Wan Kenobi with the Negotiator, even when he learned Obi Wan had fought in the Clone Wars, and that he was able to apply to the Imperial Academy without Vader and half the fleet showing up, suggests they're probably the SW equivalent of Smith and Jones.


Really? In ANH Luke "wanted" to go but his uncle refused. Considering the population on Tatooine, that Luke lived with his own family which is a part of Vader's family of which he knows of. Not sure where in ANH Luke was spending his time on the Holonet... as I just watched the movie yesterday and saw nothing of it. Luke did however guess rather quickly about Kenobi when the Droids showed up, in a matter of seconds in fact. Also, until we find a planet where the name of Kenobi and Skywalker are common place, it doesn't effect the point.

Captain Seafort wrote:2) Have you watched ANH? Whether or not there was a standing Imperial presence is irrelevant. What matters is the fact that Tantive IV showed up, dropped an escape pod, and Mos Eisley was crawling with stormies in five second flat. That is not an independent system, it's simply one the Empire doesn't give enough of a s**t about to give it a permanent garrison.


Yes, I watched it yesterday. Its nice that you've changed stance on a matter without even declaring so. However, yet again, we saw a world that operated easily outside of the Empire. If it were so "Firmly" under the Empire's control as you keep preaching... then Kenobi and Skywalker would have been found instantly as their names came up. This makes more sense with the planet not being under Imperial control considering how fast the ISD deployed troops to the planet and how quickly they locked the spaceports down.

Captain Seafort wrote:It demonstrates that the "vast majority" of the Outer Rim was under the control of a single Imperial Oversector. It demonstrates that hundreds of additional sectors in the region were under the control of another Oversector. How exactly do you reconcile such statements with your fantasy of 20% of the Rim being independent?


So, you can't tell the difference between "Vast Majority" and "All"? Seriously... We have continued statements across the board from the films and EU about how many systems remained outside of the Empire. Saying that 1/5th of a region that made up only 1/10th (at most) the Empire was independent isn't hard to figure.
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed May 11, 2011 11:58 pm

Deepcrush wrote:The US has that kind of control over much of the Earth. However the US doesn't own the whole of the Earth. Its much the same here.


No it doesn't. Not even close. The ability to defeat most other nations does not equate to the ability to turn up and take control of a country without raising a sweat.

I never said anything along the lines of a "single sector changing the Empire". However that doesn't change that sectors could in fact cause issue for the Empire.


My point is that the ability to muster a force capable of rivalling a sector fleet is not exactly an impressive achievement. It's the equivalent of an Afghan village being able to give a US infantry section a hard time.

Really? In ANH Luke "wanted" to go but his uncle refused.


He'd been accepted, the issue was allowing him to physically leave.

Not sure where in ANH Luke was spending his time on the Holonet


It's from EU stuff.

Luke did however guess rather quickly about Kenobi when the Droids showed up


He guessed that the "Obi Wan Kenobi" they were talking about might be related to the local hermit Ben Kenobi. He didn't make the link between the Obi Wan Kenobi they were talking about and the Negotiator.

Captain Seafort wrote:However, yet again, we saw a world that operated easily outside of the Empire. If it were so "Firmly" under the Empire's control as you keep preaching... then Kenobi and Skywalker would have been found instantly as their names came up.


You mean like Luke's came up with he applied to the Academy? :roll:

This makes more sense with the planet not being under Imperial control considering how fast the ISD deployed troops to the planet and how quickly they locked the spaceports down.


This bit sounds like you're agreeing with me.

So, you can't tell the difference between "Vast Majority" and "All"? Seriously... We have continued statements across the board from the films and EU about how many systems remained outside of the Empire. Saying that 1/5th of a region that made up only 1/10th (at most) the Empire was independent isn't hard to figure.


The only evidence we have of any system, let alone sector, outside the effective control of the Empire refers to Mon Cal and possibly Nal Hutta. The rest are mere client states, allowed to get on with their own business but never left in any doubt that the Empire could sweep in an take charge any time it wanted to.
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Deepcrush » Thu May 12, 2011 12:21 am

Captain Seafort wrote:No it doesn't. Not even close. The ability to defeat most other nations does not equate to the ability to turn up and take control of a country without raising a sweat.


Right, I forgot entirely. The Empire was lucky enough not to have to deal with any rebellion. No one resisted them at all... throughout all of the films.

Captain Seafort wrote:My point is that the ability to muster a force capable of rivalling a sector fleet is not exactly an impressive achievement. It's the equivalent of an Afghan village being able to give a US infantry section a hard time.


And when several dozen or hundred such places begin to cause problems, maybe even thousands. What is the end result of such a power trying to maintain control over an extended front.

He'd been accepted, the issue was allowing him to physically leave.


I'll have to see if this is true or not, then reply.

Captain Seafort wrote:It's from EU stuff.


Okay... source if you please.

He guessed that the "Obi Wan Kenobi" they were talking about might be related to the local hermit Ben Kenobi. He didn't make the link between the Obi Wan Kenobi they were talking about and the Negotiator.


Again the question is why would he. Some EU stuff says Luke like playing on the internet. I doubt that makes him an expert on Galactic history.

This bit sounds like you're agreeing with me.


Hardly, your first statement was that the "Empire had clear control". Which you then changed you stance to "they could take control". That restatement simply supports the stance I've remained with, that many area's of the Galaxy remained apart of Imperial control.

The only evidence we have of any system, let alone sector, outside the effective control of the Empire refers to Mon Cal and possibly Nal Hutta. The rest are mere client states, allowed to get on with their own business but never left in any doubt that the Empire could sweep in an take charge any time it wanted to.


Find where the Merchants Guild or Hutts or the Hapes are mere client states. If the Empire could defeat them isn't the point, the point which you seem to enjoy dodging is that they were independent. I never said the Empire couldn't defeat them, I never said that they rivalled the Empire. All I pointed out was that a number of systems and even sectors operated outside of Imperial control.
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu May 12, 2011 1:08 pm

Deepcrush wrote:Right, I forgot entirely. The Empire was lucky enough not to have to deal with any rebellion. No one resisted them at all... throughout all of the films.


I take it you didn't pay much attention to how successful the Rebellion was (or not, as the case may be) prior to Endor. Stole some plans, got a fluke victory courtesy of Luke, then got the shit kicked out of them.

And when several dozen or hundred such places begin to cause problems, maybe even thousands. What is the end result of such a power trying to maintain control over an extended front.


Evidence that there were hundreds, let alone thousands?

Again the question is why would he. Some EU stuff says Luke like playing on the internet. I doubt that makes him an expert on Galactic history.


Me neither. However, there's a difference between being an expert on galactic history and recognising the name of of one of the most famous commanders of the Clone Wars. It's the equivalent of never having heard of Rommel or Montgomery.

Hardly, your first statement was that the "Empire had clear control". Which you then changed you stance to "they could take control". That restatement simply supports the stance I've remained with, that many area's of the Galaxy remained apart of Imperial control.


On the contrary - being in control does not necessarily mean having garrisons on every world. The fact that the Empire was able to waltz in to Mos Eisley without any resistance whatsoever demonstrates that they were indeed in control of Tatooine, regardless of whether they had a permanent presence there or not.

Find where the Merchants Guild or Hutts or the Hapes are mere client states.


The Essential Atlas describes Hapes as an "independent affiliate" of the Empire, indicating that it was self-governing, but paid some sort of tribute to the Empire. I.E. a client state.

Likewise, Hutt space was under the nominal control of various sector governors, albeit their control wasn't great, and they paid taxes to the Empire.

As for the Merchants' Guild, where's the evidence that it controlled any territory?
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Mikey » Thu May 12, 2011 1:12 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:Rommel or Montgomery.


Who?
Sorry, I just had to.
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Reliant121 » Thu May 12, 2011 1:13 pm

Sadly, a lot of my generation have never heard of either.
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu May 12, 2011 1:14 pm

Mikey wrote:Who?
Sorry, I just had to.


:whack:
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Mikey » Thu May 12, 2011 2:47 pm

:twisted:
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Re: Ship of the Week 2 : Acclamator Class

Postby Deepcrush » Thu May 12, 2011 3:51 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:I take it you didn't pay much attention to how successful the Rebellion was (or not, as the case may be) prior to Endor. Stole some plans, got a fluke victory courtesy of Luke, then got the s**t kicked out of them.


You mean other then blowing up two Death Stars, score after score of planetary raids, built a fleet right under the nose of the Empire... Sounds pretty damn successful.

Captain Seafort wrote:Evidence that there were hundreds, let alone thousands?


Oh, like the end of the Rebellion? What if there were hundreds or thousands of systems in revolt? You know, like at the end of the Empire when it fell to the Rebellion? The end of RotJ, where systems across the Empire have risen up. Like that kind of evidence... the Film itself right?

Captain Seafort wrote:Me neither. However, there's a difference between being an expert on galactic history and recognising the name of of one of the most famous commanders of the Clone Wars. It's the equivalent of never having heard of Rommel or Montgomery.


Maybe, but in a Galactic wide conflict when there were thousands of Jedi, thousands of other generals and admirals, and with the Emperor taking the credit for the victory and largely blanking out the Jedi. Its rather easy to consider that Luke never came across Kenobi.

Captain Seafort wrote:On the contrary - being in control does not necessarily mean having garrisons on every world. The fact that the Empire was able to waltz in to Mos Eisley without any resistance whatsoever demonstrates that they were indeed in control of Tatooine, regardless of whether they had a permanent presence there or not.


No, being able to land troops on foreign lands doesn't mean you control those lands. The US lands troops all the time in other countries, the British Empire did so before as well. Neither controlled every place they landed.

Captain Seafort wrote:The Essential Atlas describes Hapes as an "independent affiliate" of the Empire, indicating that it was self-governing, but paid some sort of tribute to the Empire. I.E. a client state.


Wrong, Independent Affiliate doesn't indicate anything other then they were apart from the Empire, didn't challenge the Empire, and the Empire left them alone. If it were a client state, it would have said client state.

Captain Seafort wrote:Likewise, Hutt space was under the nominal control of various sector governors, albeit their control wasn't great, and they paid taxes to the Empire.


Again, you're claiming they paid taxes, that the Hutts weren't separate of the Empire, evidence?

Captain Seafort wrote:As for the Merchants' Guild, where's the evidence that it controlled any territory?


Yes, Lando informs Han and Leia that Bespin isn't apart of the Empire. That they run a free operation in a free system. Leia instantly asks if he's a part of the Merchants' Guild.
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