Empire vs modern army

[stitch626]

Here are the scenarios.

1) Infantry only, in an urban area. Say 1000 Troopers vs 1000 modern soldiers (nothing special, just the basic guys).

2) Infantry only, in an open area (some cover, like boxes and bushes). Same compliment as above.

3) Infantry and ground vehicles, in an open area. Equal number of troops on each side (say 1000). Equal number of ground vehicles (say 100 of varying types).

4) Same as above, but add aircraft (fighters for the Empire, not ISD's).

[BigJKU316]

This depends, are we using movie stromtroopers who can't shoot straight and have the brains of you common household dog or the uber-soldiers that we see in the various books?

In all honesty a group of well trained modern soldiers from a NATO nation kicks the piss out of them, assuming that their weapons can penetrate the armor of the stromtroopers. This is a group of people that were bested by a bunch of teddy bears with spears at one point.

In all scenarios everything will depend on how effective present day weapons are against the armor on the vehicles. If a TOW or Javalin can take out the legs of a walker then the modern soldiers win in a walk. If not then they get crushed.

[Sionnach Glic]

1) Infantry only, in an urban area. Say 1000 Troopers vs 1000 modern soldiers (nothing special, just the basic guys).

Stormtroopers have weapons that can blow chunks out of steel walls, advanced optics and sensors and we have indications to suggest that their armour would be bullet proof. A win for the Empire.

2) Infantry only, in an open area (some cover, like boxes and bushes). Same compliment as above.

The guns that the Clones were using in AOTC had a range of ~2 kilometres, IIRC. The larger guns we see some Stormtroopers carrying may well have a similar range. Thus the Stormies have a major range advantage. Add to this the capability of blowing up most cover that modern troops could take cover behind and all the advantages mentioned above and I think we can hand the Stormtroopers another easy win.

3) Infantry and ground vehicles, in an open area. Equal number of troops on each side (say 1000). Equal number of ground vehicles (say 100 of varying types).

This would be interesting. Tanks and some of those big mounted grenade launchers you see on IFVs would undoubtedly blow Stormtroopers apart. So the playing field is somewhat levelled for the infantry. Of course, Imperial vehicles would blow modern day tanks apart, so that advantage wouldn't last for long. Whether a modern tank could down an Imperial repulsortank (the vehicles I'm presuming would be used in this scenario) is unknown.

4) Same as above, but add aircraft (fighters for the Empire, not ISD's).

While they're not all that aerodynamic, TIE fighters are capable of achieving escape velocity. Thus they have a clear advantage over any modern aircraft. Once the Earth fighters are downed, the TIEs can just strafe the ground forces with impunity.

This depends, are we using movie stromtroopers who can't shoot straight and have the brains of you common household dog or the uber-soldiers that we see in the various books?

The troops in the movies didnt perform all that badly. They did just fine in storming the Tantive IV and Echo Station. On Bespin and the Death Star they were ordered to allow their targets to escape, so their performances there can't really be used as a good measure of their abilities.

In all honesty a group of well trained modern soldiers from a NATO nation kicks the piss out of them, assuming that their weapons can penetrate the armor of the stromtroopers. This is a group of people that were bested by a bunch of teddy bears with spears at one point.

Well, firstly that's a pretty big "assuming". A set of Stormtrooper armour once survived an impact form a spear that sent him flying bodily across a room, with the armour getting barely a scratch. So they would appear to perform pretty damn good against KE weapons.

With regards to Endor, I think it's worth pointing out that the Stormtroopers there were not bested by the Ewoks. Although they took casualties in the beginning to the initial surprise attack and pre-prepared Ewok traps, they quickly began to take control of the situation. They only began losing when Chewie hijacked an AT-ST.
Also, don't forget that there was a platoon or so of crack Rebel commandoes also fighting against the Stormtroopers and that they were in the middle of a forest - the worst possible location for a firefight.

Endor was a poor performance for the Stormtroopers, but it's by no means some titanic embaressment.

In all scenarios everything will depend on how effective present day weapons are against the armor on the vehicles. If a TOW or Javalin can take out the legs of a walker then the modern soldiers win in a walk. If not then they get crushed.

Aye, it's that which will determine who will win the third (and possibly fourth) scenario. I'd imagine that a well-placed missile could do some serious damage to an AT-AT, but it's hitting the right spot that's the problem.

[Captain Seafort]

This would be interesting. Tanks and some of those big mounted grenade launchers you see on IFVs would undoubtedly blow Stormtroopers apart. So the playing field is somewhat levelled for the infantry. Of course, Imperial vehicles would blow modern day tanks apart, so that advantage wouldn't last for long. Whether a modern tank could down an Imperial repulsortank (the vehicles I'm presuming would be used in this scenario) is unknown.

I don't think you can assume something that light - if we're talking about a full armoured battlegroup, with IFVs and tanks, the I assume the Imperial equivalent would at least have AT-ATs. That's low Mt-range firepower with a range of over a dozen km.

Aye, it's that which will determine who will win the third (and possibly fourth) scenario. I'd imagine that a well-placed missile could do some serious damage to an AT-AT, but it's hitting the right spot that's the problem.

I'm not so sure. In Isard's Revenge a flight of X-Wings knocked out four AT-ATs with their lasers, but they weren't doing all that much damage - melting leg joints and the like. A single strafing run wasn't even enough to punch through the side armour. Given the sort of firepower they have, that says a lot for AT-AT durability. I think the only way anything short of a nuke is going to hurt them is if it hits the cockpit window.

[Mark]

I was going to say a pro torp.........but I guess that's be the same thing

[BigJKU316]

Well, I don't read the books or any of the other stuff. I just go based on what I have seen in the movies where they were lucky not to stumble over one another.

Their performance stroming a captured ship was laughable and was really only passable given the fact that the defenders seemed incapable of just firing through a door over and over.

I could see them being ordered to let the MF escape, but why order them not to shoot Luke? Or the droid with the plans on it? That makes no sense. You could still track them after all.

I have not really seen a Storm Trooper shoot someone at what I would call more than a moderate distance. Certainly I have not seen someone who would qualify as a Marine, let alone a higher end soldier. The tactics are amaturish at best as they seem to just sort of charge around in groups with no discernable plan, no idea of what the real objective might b and no regard at all for unit cohesion. Teddy Rupskin chucks a rock at you from the trees? By all means abandon the one and only crucial objective on the whole planet to go chase down a bunch of bears in the forrest you have no need to control. Who was commanding this nonsense?

I mean if it pissed you off the much withdrawl to your important objective and order a bombardment from space after you turn and execute en mass your Rebel prisoners. Or just wait until the space battle is won with your invulnerable space station and then round up all the bears and stuff them in an oven. Or torture them to death. Whatever, anything is better than rushing into the woods in small groups basically begging to be cut off and chewed up piece by piece.

I find the notion that their weapons are blowing apart huge chunks of steel to be nonsense as well. We have seen little teddy bears take shots full on in the chest and simply fall to the ground and still live for a few seconds. If it generates that sort of heat and energy they would be vaporized on contact. I tend to see the Star Wars books and much of the supporting material as just pulling numbers out of the sky. None of it relates very well at all to what you see in the movies and it all just sounds like fanboy non-sense.

[Captain Seafort]

I just go based on what I have seen in the movies where they were lucky not to stumble over one another.

They also completely ignored everything the Rebels threw at them. Even if snowspeeder weapons are only a tenth the strength of a X-Wing's, then that's the equivalent of over a ton on TNT, as a lower limit.

Also, in SW the books are also cannon, and can only be overriden if they're directly contradicted by the films.

Their performance stroming a captured ship was laughable and was really only passable given the fact that the defenders seemed incapable of just firing through a door over and over.

How else would you propose they attack? They were restricted to attacking through a weak point in the hull (the door), and succeeded despite having go through that chokepoint.

I could see them being ordered to let the MF escape, but why order them not to shoot Luke? Or the droid with the plans on it? That makes no sense. You could still track them after all.

Not if Luke or one of the droids are the only one of the rebels who knew where the base was.

I have not really seen a Storm Trooper shoot someone at what I would call more than a moderate distance.

Watch the Battle of Geonosis in AotC or Utapau in RotS - there's plenty of long-range combat there. All the major battles we saw in the OT were restricted by the terrain - either in corridors or in the jungle.

Teddy Rupskin chucks a rock at you from the trees? By all means abandon the one and only crucial objective on the whole planet to go chase down a bunch of bears in the forrest you have no need to control.

The bunker was secure (or at least would have been if that idiot hadn't opened the door, so the stormies repelled the initial attack and went on the counter-attack to put the Ewoks on the back foot and clear the vicinity of the bunker. They were taking losses, but they were also slaughtering the Ewoks and decisively winning the battle until Chewie turned one of their own walkers against them.

I find the notion that their weapons are blowing apart huge chunks of steel to be nonsense as well.

Watch the firefight between Han and the stormies in AHN, just before the Falcon takes off. One of Han's shots (from a pistol, not even a big weapon like the stormies') blows a torso-sized chunk out of the bay wall - not quite steel, but solid concrete. A wall that is used as a blast pit for starships lifting off.

We have seen little teddy bears take shots full on in the chest and simply fall to the ground and still live for a few seconds. If it generates that sort of heat and energy they would be vaporized on contact.

The Ewoks were unarmoured, so it makes sense you use a lower power setting - it extends your ammunition capacity.

I tend to see the Star Wars books and much of the supporting material as just pulling numbers out of the sky.

Tough.

None of it relates very well at all to what you see in the movies and it all just sounds like fanboy non-sense.

On the contrary - by and large calculations derived from the films tend to produce much higher numbers than are stated in the books.

[stitch626]

Forgot to specify this... for scenario 3 and 4, none of the giant vehicles (AT-AT). Just the ones that have a similar modern day match (for purpose).

[Captain Seafort]

If the US Army gets Bradleys, why can't the Empire have AT-AT's? They're equivalent.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'm not so sure. In Isard's Revenge a flight of X-Wings knocked out four AT-ATs with their lasers, but they weren't doing all that much damage - melting leg joints and the like. A single strafing run wasn't even enough to punch through the side armour. Given the sort of firepower they have, that says a lot for AT-AT durability. I think the only way anything short of a nuke is going to hurt them is if it hits the cockpit window.

My thinking was that a tank, just by the sheer KE of its shell, might be able to actualy knock an AT-AT over if it hit it in the side, due to its very high centre of gravity. Unlikely, though.

Well, I don't read the books or any of the other stuff. I just go based on what I have seen in the movies where they were lucky not to stumble over one another.

Even just going by the movies they're not all that bad. You just have to keep in mind that the majority of the time we see them in action they're pretty much ordered to suck.

Their performance stroming a captured ship was laughable and was really only passable given the fact that the defenders seemed incapable of just firing through a door over and over.

How else do you storm a ship? They needed to take various people prisoner, so just blowing the door and indiscriminantly lobbing grenades everywhere wouldn't be a great idea.

I could see them being ordered to let the MF escape, but why order them not to shoot Luke? Or the droid with the plans on it? That makes no sense. You could still track them after all.

They were simply ordered to let Luke and co escape. When Vader tells you to do something, you don't try and see how far you can push the order.

Also, they didn't know R2 was the droid with the plans on board.

I have not really seen a Storm Trooper shoot someone at what I would call more than a moderate distance.

On two occasions on Endor we see Stormtroopers hit R2 and Leia from across a clearing with a quick snap-shot. That's pretty damn good.

Certainly I have not seen someone who would qualify as a Marine, let alone a higher end soldier. The tactics are amaturish at best as they seem to just sort of charge around in groups with no discernable plan, no idea of what the real objective might b and no regard at all for unit cohesion.

How else do you storm a starship?

Teddy Rupskin chucks a rock at you from the trees? By all means abandon the one and only crucial objective on the whole planet to go chase down a bunch of bears in the forrest you have no need to control.

Why did it need guarding? As we saw, the Rebels were completely incapable of actually breaking in. Moving out of the big clearing to take cover and drive off the enemy would seem like common sense in such a situation.

I mean if it pissed you off the much withdrawl to your important objective and order a bombardment from space after you turn and execute en mass your Rebel prisoners.

Not an option when the shield is up and there's a battle going on in space.

Or just wait until the space battle is won with your invulnerable space station and then round up all the bears and stuff them in an oven. Or torture them to death. Whatever, anything is better than rushing into the woods in small groups basically begging to be cut off and chewed up piece by piece.

Aye, they didn't perform spectacularly there.

I find the notion that their weapons are blowing apart huge chunks of steel to be nonsense as well.

Um, we see it happening. In ANH hits to the walls on the Tantive IV result in bits and pieces flying everywhere, hits to the concrete in the docking bay blow torso-sized chunks out of the wall, and hits in the Death Star also blow holes in the wall (including blowing apart the metal door to the elevator in the prison block). In ESB blasters blow fist-sized holes in the metal walls of Cloud City.

We have seen little teddy bears take shots full on in the chest and simply fall to the ground and still live for a few seconds. If it generates that sort of heat and energy they would be vaporized on contact.

Presumably they have multiple power settings. It would explain the disparity of the effects.

I tend to see the Star Wars books and much of the supporting material as just pulling numbers out of the sky. None of it relates very well at all to what you see in the movies and it all just sounds like fanboy non-sense.

Actualy, in a number of areas (speed, numbers, industrial capabilities, starship weapons power, etc) the EU actualy suggests the Empire is weaker than the movies would suggest.

[BigJKU316]

Well take the Megaton range for the AT-AT weapons that is thrown out there. You see them firing their main weapons at the rebel trenches. Yet the explosions look like something caused by a hand grenade. If you have megaton level weapons you should be blowing huge holes in the earth. It makes no sense to hold back. They want to wipe these people out.

[Coalition]

With regards to Endor, I think it's worth pointing out that the Stormtroopers there were not bested by the Ewoks. Although they took casualties in the beginning to the initial surprise attack and pre-prepared Ewok traps, they quickly began to take control of the situation. They only began losing when Chewie hijacked an AT-ST.

Even more fun is that Ewoks were portrayed as being able to toss rocks around as if they were just a painted piece of styrofoam.

Forgot to specify this... for scenario 3 and 4, none of the giant vehicles (AT-AT). Just the ones that have a similar modern day match (for purpose).

So modern artillery vs the SPHA-L or Hailfire droid from AotC as an example?

From looking at them, US Army artillery enjoys a range and arcing advantage. The US artillery can engage from a much longer range, and can take advantage of terrain to hide and keep on shooting at Imperial forces. Imperial forces have an advantage is sheer firepower, and given the Hailfire droid, their missiles are intelligent enough to seek out and one-hit kill the APCs used in Episode 2.

So Star Wars might initially set up slowly, thinking they are out of range, but when the first rounds land (likely using time-on-target) the survivors head out quickly. Given the sealed armor, the fragmentation damage radii for US Army weapons will be smaller than expected against infantry. Once the Imperials get past the terrain (either going around, or shooting the mountain) and they can get line of sight, the US vehicles will be popping like firecrackers.

[Captain Seafort]

My thinking was that a tank, just by the sheer KE of its shell, might be able to actualy knock an AT-AT over if it hit it in the side, due to its very high centre of gravity. Unlikely, though.

Not a chance. The legs alone must weigh as much as a destroyer.

[Deepcrush]

My thinking was that a tank, just by the sheer KE of its shell, might be able to actualy knock an AT-AT over if it hit it in the side, due to its very high centre of gravity. Unlikely, though.

Not a chance. The legs alone must weigh as much as a destroyer.

Doubtful they weigh much, but the point is solid. You're NOT going to knock over an ATAT with a 120mm round.

[Captain Seafort]

Well take the Megaton range for the AT-AT weapons that is thrown out there. You see them firing their main weapons at the rebel trenches. Yet the explosions look like something caused by a hand grenade. If you have megaton level weapons you should be blowing huge holes in the earth. It makes no sense to hold back. They want to wipe these people out.

That figure is calculated based on the diameter of the initial fireball when Veers shot the generator (before the generator blew up) - it's for a max yield shot, but it shows what an AT-AT is capable of. The shots against the trenches were a) a much lower yield (why waste energy), b) could easily have been drilling kilometre-long tunnels in the ice (these are energy weapons, not bombs). Incidentally, Vader wanted prisoners, including his son. Hence why he ordered a surface attack instead of simply melting the icefield outside the shield and flooding the base.