Proton Torpedoes or Concussive Missiles-which are better?

[Tyyr]

Maybe the secondary was shielded? Maybe it wasn't as easy to disable as the primary? Also from the movie Wedge's shots appeared to be identical to the Falcon's. It looks to me like they both were firing CM's. At the time I believe Lando was the ranking officer so I can see him taking the glory shot and leaving Wedge to take out the secondary.

[Deepcrush]

Perhaps the reason the missiles were used instead of torps is becasue they have different effects. The torps may have more raw destructive power, but they may also not be able to physically penetrate the reactor. Whereas the sharp point of the missiles could.

Just a guess mind you.

That would make sense. I could easily see that being the case.

The established theory is that CMs are stronger - the RotJ novel came out long before any of the EU stuff, and is G-canon to boot. It overrules everything but the film itself.

That's your theory. However everything else present plus the fact of how far off the movie novels are in so many details leaves to much in doubt.

[Captain Seafort]

That's your theory.

No it isn't, it's the official owners' declaration. The best summary is probably a quote from SW Insider 23, in an interview with Lucas Licensing's Continuity Editor:

'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology.

Everything counts, but the original film-related stuff, including the novelisations, counts higher than anything else.

However everything else present plus the fact of how far off the movie novels are in so many details leaves to much in doubt.

If there's a direct contradiction (such as Yoda being described as blue in the ESB novelisation) then the film obviously overrides it. In this case there is no such direct contradiction.

Maybe the secondary was shielded? Maybe it wasn't as easy to disable as the primary? Also from the movie Wedge's shots appeared to be identical to the Falcon's. It looks to me like they both were firing CM's. At the time I believe Lando was the ranking officer so I can see him taking the glory shot and leaving Wedge to take out the secondary.

Good points, and if we were going by the film alone, I'd probably agree to disagree. However, we are not.

Perhaps the reason the missiles were used instead of torps is becasue they have different effects. The torps may have more raw destructive power, but they may also not be able to physically penetrate the reactor. Whereas the sharp point of the missiles could.

When thermonuclear yields are being thrown around, I don't think a sharp point is going to make much of a difference. The suggestion that CMs are more penetrative but have a lower yield is a possibility, but the visuals seem to disagree - the initial explosion from the PTs was relatively small, not even encompassing the regulator before it started stretching to approximately a quarter of the way round the north tower. The CM impact enveloped the entire area between the towers, and that shot may have been of it shrinking from an even larger initial fireball given Lando's reaction to the detonation flash.

[BigJKU316]

I would say it is also possible that the two designation simply denote different types of warheads that may both come in a bunch of different versions. Many EU works refer to the MF as having oversized laser weapons for its size to begin with so it would not shock me if Han had equipped the thing with a version of CM that you would typically find on a much larger ship like a frigate.

[Sionnach Glic]

I just had a look at the battle and the two shots appear to have had very different effects on their targets. The power regulator that Wedge fired at stayed intact, just emitting a gout of flame from where it was hit. The part of the generator that the Falcon hit appeared to shatter violently. Because of this I'd go with Tyyr's theory that, for whatever reason, the power regulator was some sort of hardened target that required a heavier weapon, while the main reactor was relatively fragile.

[Captain Seafort]

That's one possibility, but another is that the two targets were roughly the same and the different effects are due to the PTs being weaker. That's how I look at it, in the light of the novelisation's statement.

[Deepcrush]

No it isn't, it's the official owners' declaration. The best summary is probably a quote from SW Insider 23, in an interview with Lucas Licensing's Continuity Editor:

Worthless for the question at hand as no comment is made to the power between CMs. and PTs.

Everything counts, but the original film-related stuff, including the novelisations, counts higher than anything else.

Read your own source. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. Plain as day, its not just one statement from a single book but the overall universe. Again, everywhere expect for a single misused line treats the PT as a more powerful warhead then the CM.

If there's a direct contradiction (such as Yoda being described as blue in the ESB novelisation) then the film obviously overrides it. In this case there is no such direct contradiction.

You mean like their misqouting Lando, messing up on what bracket the ISD is, or your own claim from before that Han's statements in ANH weren't canon because he was stressed... Somehow, I just don't trust you or the make believe source.

-------------------------------

On a side note. SW.com lists PTs as the strongest weapons carried aboard fighters. Since it doesn't say that for the CMs. I think that about settles it.

[Captain Seafort]

Worthless for the question at hand as no comment is made to the power between CMs. and PTs.

Other than the one I provided and you're dismissing.

Read your own source. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. Plain as day, its not just one statement from a single book but the overall universe. Again, everywhere expect for a single misused line treats the PT as a more powerful warhead then the CM.

Of course everything is part of the overall continuity, but the G-canon stuff outranks everything else. Therefore, if there's a direct contradiction we go with the G-canon stuff. This is such a case.

You mean like their misqouting Lando

Lando did not say that PTs are more powerful than CMs. Therefore, no contradiction

messing up on what bracket the ISD is

In your opinion. The fact that your opinion is, as is so often the case, a load of horseshit, makes this irrelevant.

your own claim from before that Han's statements in ANH weren't canon because he was stressed

I said nothing of the sort - I said that he was either wrong, or using a very broad generalisation.

Somehow, I just don't trust you or the make believe source.

If you don't want to follow Lucas Licensing's canon policy then don't get involved in SW debates.

On a side note. SW.com lists PTs as the strongest weapons carried aboard fighters. Since it doesn't say that for the CMs. I think that about settles it.

The Millennium Falcon isn't a fighter.

Of course, the whole argument that one "type" of weapon is more or less powerful than another is stupid. The VSD carries concussion missiles, and nobody with a shred of intelligence would argue that those weapons are weaker than an X-wing's torpedoes. It would be equally idiotic to suggest that the Chimera's PTs are weaker than the Falcon's missiles.

[stitch626]

The Millennium Falcon isn't a fighter.

I think he was refering to the A-Wing, which had CMs.

The problem is we are trying to compare weapons of different sizes. We need to find a comparison of weapons that are the same class size. Such as the CMs of the A and the PTs of the X.

[Deepcrush]

Other than the one I provided and you're dismissing.

Well then, somewhere in there was a point about CMs vs PTs.

Right, the invisible... if I missed it then please post where in the dialog they stated CMs are stronger the PTs.

Of course everything is part of the overall continuity, but the G-canon stuff outranks everything else. Therefore, if there's a direct contradiction we go with the G-canon stuff. This is such a case.

Show it then. Stop standing here saying and bring some proof. The canon tree states that the strongest (non-special) weapon aboard fighters is the PT. You have, a bolt color. Canon tree vs bolt color. Think about that for one quick second.

Lando did not say that PTs are more powerful than CMs. Therefore, no contradiction

I'm talking about when you posted up in a prior thread that he (or Akbar, sorry I can't remember which) said ISDs were destroyers when the real line stated they were Star Destoyers as in the ship's class.

In your opinion. The fact that your opinion is, as is so often the case, a load of horseshit, makes this irrelevant.

Aww, cry some more. The canon site and trade mark and cast of the movies, all state it is such (a cruiser). You don't like it, so you ignore it and even lie about it. Yeah, good job on you.

I said nothing of the sort - I said that he was either wrong, or using a very broad generalisation.

Tip toe it just a bit more. Either he, being a former officer and trained pilot with not only a sensor lock but plain sight range, stated directly what he saw and lied. Or, you're ignoring it because it shows you to be wrong.

If you don't want to follow Lucas Licensing's canon policy then don't get involved in SW debates.

Okay, thats funny in many ways. First off being how silly it is to think I won't take up a chance to bash a mod or anyone for that matter. Second being that I've been quoting from the Canon Source while you've had to make stuff up.

No, I'm going to stay quite involved and enjoy it!

The Millennium Falcon isn't a fighter.

Of course, the whole argument that one "type" of weapon is more or less powerful than another is stupid. The VSD carries concussion missiles, and nobody with a shred of intelligence would argue that those weapons are weaker than an X-wing's torpedoes. It would be equally idiotic to suggest that the Chimera's PTs are weaker than the Falcon's missiles.

Well, you could apply the (or a) thought that a CM the size of a fighter might be more powerful then that of a warhead on a fighter. Also, while the MF isn't a fighter. He use and weapons match that of fighters. So its pretty simple to draw a line between the two.

The problem is we are trying to compare weapons of different sizes. We need to find a comparison of weapons that are the same class size. Such as the CMs of the A and the PTs of the X.

Pretty much the case but as I said above. We have to draw our theory from the closest example. Since an ISD is a bit further in size then an X-Wing/A-Wing then I think starting from the fighter scale is safest.

PS, this is awesome! A mod bash on Christmas Eve! Fucking greatness!

[Captain Seafort]

Right, the invisible... if I missed it then please post where in the dialog they stated CMs are stronger the PTs.

*sigh*

"It's too big, Gold Leader," yelled Wedge. "My proton torpedoes won't even dent that."

"Go for the power regulator on the north tower." Lando directed. "I'll take the main reactor. We're carrying concussion missiles- they should penetrate."

Show it then. Stop standing here saying and bring some proof. The canon tree states that the strongest (non-special) weapon aboard fighters is the PT. You have, a bolt color. Canon tree vs bolt color. Think about that for one quick second.

Wrong - I have a direct quote from RotJ.

I'm talking about when you posted up in a prior thread that he (or Akbar, sorry I can't remember which) said ISDs were destroyers when the real line stated they were Star Destoyers as in the ship's class.

"Star Destroyer" is the vessel type - they were Imperial and Tector class ships. We've been over this many times. Unfortunately you're too thick to get it through your head.

Tip toe it just a bit more. Either he, being a former officer and trained pilot with not only a sensor lock but plain sight range, stated directly what he saw and lied. Or, you're ignoring it because it shows you to be wrong.

He was also doing other things at the time (such minor details as not getting blown up and plotting a jumping into hyperspace), and getting precise details of what he was up against wasn't that important. Less preoccupied individuals in less stressful situations have consistently described the ships as destroyers.

[Deepcrush]

*sigh*

Yes, roll the eyes at me because you forgot to post up a quote. Because you're failing and yet another thing is my fault...

RotJ, p78 wrote:
"It's too big, Gold Leader," yelled Wedge. "My proton torpedoes won't even dent that."

"Go for the power regulator on the north tower." Lando directed. "I'll take the main reactor. We're carrying concussion missiles- they should penetrate."

Since this is not the quote from the movie and in fact is a fair change of it. Still means nothing as it violates a canon statement. Even if it is to add something extra in.

Wrong - I have a direct quote from RotJ.

No, you have a quote from RotJ novel which attempts to change what said in the film. Since the film has a line, and none is needed to replace it. The line is void and only useful for dramatic effect. However it is useless with canon.

"Star Destroyer" is the vessel type - they were Imperial and Tector class ships. We've been over this many times. Unfortunately you're too thick to get it through your head.

Thats right little baby... keep crying for me, just keep crying.

He was also doing other things at the time (such minor details as not getting blown up and plotting a jumping into hyperspace), and getting precise details of what he was up against wasn't that important. Less preoccupied individuals in less stressful situations have consistently described the ships as destroyers.

Right, so were his sensors wrong? Was he wrong down on the planet? Since you used this very seen against another person, were you wrong then? Of course I know your love of the novels and how you tend to ignore the films when it suits you. But then again, we would have to declare the films and the canon tree and the canon site all as non canon for your idea to work.

Since no one in any of the films ever called the SDs as Destroyers but referred to them as Cruisers. Since the Canon Site declares that they are the ISDs are Cruisers (right there in black and white) and you have Solo pointing them out as "Cruisers".

This of course could all be wrong but then if we took the Destroyer line to heart then the SSDs would also have to count as a Destroyer... minus that the canon stats they're battleships.

So, round and round you go. Proving more so everyday (not including the holiday response lag) why I have such a lack of care for forum rules and guidelines.

[Captain Seafort]

Yes, roll the eyes at me because you forgot to post up a quote.

You're either blind or a liar.

Since this is not the quote from the movie and in fact is a fair change of it. Still means nothing as it violates a canon statement. Even if it is to add something extra in.

Does the film state that PTs are stronger than CMs? No. Therefore, there is no contradiction.

No, you have a quote from RotJ novel

Which is also G-canon unless directly contradicted by the film. In this case it is not.

Thats right little baby... keep crying for me, just keep crying.

Translation: "I'm beaten but I won't admit it"

Right, so were his sensors wrong?

We don't know enough about what information Solo used to draw a conclusion - whether he even looked at his sensors or simply glanced up, saw big wedge-shaped ships, and ID'd them as "Imperial cruisers" as a colloquialism for all capships, or a synonym for "starship".

Was he wrong down on the planet? Since you used this very seen against another person, were you wrong then?

What are you referring to here?

Of course I know your love of the novels and how you tend to ignore the films when it suits you. But then again, we would have to declare the films and the canon tree and the canon site all as non canon for your idea to work.

Not at all - we simply need to know that the novelisations and radio dramas supercede everything except the films themselves, and then only when they are directly contradicted.

Since no one in any of the films ever called the SDs as Destroyers but referred to them as Cruisers. Since the Canon Site declares that they are the ISDs are Cruisers (right there in black and white) and you have Solo pointing them out as "Cruisers".

The site, along with most stuff is C-canon, and we have direct references to destroyers in both the novel and the filmed RotJ.

This of course could all be wrong but then if we took the Destroyer line to heart then the SSDs would also have to count as a Destroyer... minus that the canon stats they're battleships.

Star Dreadnoughts, actually, and we have plenty of evidence that "Super Star Destroyer" is merely a colloquialism for all ships larger than a common SD (i.e. Star Cruisers, Battleships, Battlecruisers and Dreadnoughts).

[Deepcrush]

God you're a sad little tard...

I've been gone for all this time and you couldn't put up a single shred of anything? You just say "Canon is canon" and then try to make up your own. Plainly ignoring simple facts and I'll fully expect you to cry about someone else doing the same to you later on. How french of you. You have canon Film and a canon site. Both which I've quoted, both which you've ignored time and again. Not just here on this thread but on several others. To me its a plain showing that you care very little about the canon state of SW. So my question is, why do you bother joining in at all if you're not going to add anything worth adding?

But really. We'll just have to disagree on this topic.

PS, a dreadnaught is a battleship... I'd have thought you to know at least that much. You know, since you've chewed other people out for that in the passed.

"I'm beaten but I won't admit it"

Yeah, saw this and thought is was funny. You get your ass kicked (again) and this is your come back? Couldn't you say something original like UBER WHALES MIND SPEAK or something?