You Crush the Rebellion

Monroe
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Monroe »

Deepcrush wrote:All and all, there are three options for you.

1. I'm ignoring facts in which you can have a mod tell be to do so or concede. This is against the guidelines of the forum and within their reach.

2. Get a mod to point out something that I've missed. This is their job, to help out with things such as this where people can't come together.

3. Continue to cry. You've run out of evidence and explains why you repeat the same defeated points over and over.

All three work fine for me.
Since you refer to second person when referring to me I take it #1 you're actually talking about yourself in which cause you admit you're ignoring facts and not helping your debate. If mods want to jump in I don't mind but I'm actually having fun at your expense here. Every time you say something it makes you look more foolish. And I'm repeating the evidence I've said before cause #1- you're ignoring it.

So I could post say
http://books.google.com/books?id=O05kBI ... rough+fear

""As a rule," another report declared, "They do not fight out of some ideology or for their motherland but out of fear of their officers." .... The soldiers were indeed afraid... who fought to the last bullet, in part because retreat would mean tribunals and a death sentence." p125

Now this plan worked for awhile but the soldiers were facing what would normally do any dictatorship in. A losing war against an enemy no better. So how did Stalin maintain leadership when soldiers' discipline began to crumble more? Stalin added the important element of propaganda, which I'll go into detail when I lay out my plan. Look at the end of the Napoleonic Wars (Deep that's where they fought the real short guy). Russian troops brought back all these foreign ideas into Russia that really shook up the status quo. Part of maintaining power is maintaining the flow of information.

So Stalin was in the worse boat for a total fear ruler. Losing war, new ideas, and because he was losing the war his soldiers didn't really have a positive reinforcement that Stitch commented was so important. So under the worse possible circumstances for a total fear country the government stayed together. By all your accounts, Deep, the government should have fallen apart.

Stalin went into the past and spurred up images of the great Russia of the past. This will be important, as you'll see, when I post my detailed style of how Star Wars would be ruled through fear. Given nothing but lemons by combining fear, forced obedience, rewards for good behavior, propaganda, and historical ties which spur an emotional response (Which would be easy to do with a land as old as Star Wars), you can survive even the worse situation for a total fear dictator to be in. The situation Stalin was in. He survived against all odds and against your theory on people rebelling.
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Monroe »

Oh forgot to make the spoiler post. I'm hoping to get a streak of successful ones.
Deep will say that that proves nothing since the USSR was over thrown many decades later. He will say that the book has nothing to do with the topic but his 1960s historians do. He'll go on to insult me. Ignore the fact that I've posted yet another book / historian. And then not offer any books of his own.
I'm actually having fun with this debate now that I put you off ignore.
How many Minbari does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Tsukiyumi »

Monroe wrote:...I'm actually having fun...
Well, we can't have that.

I'm taking a personal day, though, so I won't crush your fun. Yet.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Jesus Christ I'm getting a strong urge to lock the trainwreck of a thread.

Anyway.
Monroe wrote: Yeah that's the great failure of both plans. So I think the next step would be to minimize the impact of the minority. If only a tiny sliver would stand against the measures you want to make it as hard as possible for them to talk to each other, find each other, recruit, acquire weapons etc. I think by appeasing to them you're making it too easy for them to do just that.
And by being ruthless you're increasing the number of people who will be trying to do just that.

After thinking it over for a while, I think I've found the problem. Neither of them work on their own. In fact, the Empire itself cannot succesfully prevent dissent and rebellion as it historicaly is. Its very creation precludes any chance of this scenario succeeding.

So, here's my plan.

I need to create an atmosphere similar to post-9/11 America or Cold-War era USA. Dissent is seen as unpatriotic. The enemy must be seen as utterly ruthless and savage barbarians, who only wish to see civilisation as we know it fall. The very creation of the CIS would be perfect for that; it's effectively a conglomoration of the largest and most powerful corporations in the galaxy. Send the propaganda ministry into overdrive on this, claiming about how they want to surpress the freedoms of the populace, and make them all little more than slave workers.

Now, the Republic needs to be losing the war. This will make the populace desperate, particularly when news of the countless atrocities (if need be, I have my own clone forces perpetrate them) and ruthless subjugation comes out of CIS-taken planets.

It's at this point the Rebellion, created by me, needs to start. Start small, bombing government buildings and police stations. Then slowly build up their attacks to be more elaborate and brutal. Have hospitals bombed. Medical ships blown up. Civilian stations knocked out of their orbits by suicide ship-ramming attacks. If any real pro-CIS terrorist organisations start up, I can use the massive propaganda network available to us to group them under the banner of the Rebel Alliance in the public's mind, much how any Arab terrorist organisations are believed to be Al-Qaeda by the public.

This means that any dissenting organisations that spring up will automaticaly be tainted by association with these hospital-bombing barbarians.

Now, the Empire needs to be created during the war, not after. The catalyst for this shall be the destruction of the Jedi Order.

This one's easy enough to do. Simply plant evidence of them working with terrorist groups, giving information to the enemy, etc. Claim that the reason we're losing the war is due to the Jedi's position as generals in the military. Have my own Dark Jedi/Sith/Whatever pose as members of the Jedi Order, so they can be seen working with the CIS forces.

I reveal to Anakin that I'm a Sith Lord, as historicaly happened. When Anakin runs to inform Windu and the other Jedi, I order security around my offices to be heavily increased, and that no Jedi are to be allowed entrance. When Windu and Co arrive, they've but one option: to attack and kill loyal Republic soldiers. And they'll be caught on security cameras doing just that; giving the public irrefutable proof that the Jedi are traitors as one of their Councli members can be seen as taking part in an attempted coup.

When they reach my office, I have things go as they historicaly did. Windu beats me, Anakin shows up, Windu exits via window, etc.

As the coup's taking place, simultaneously organise a spree of terrorist bombings against civilian and military targets. Also, have the Seperatists launch a major attack on Coruscant. While this is going on, I have my Dark Jedi agents (posing once again as Jedi) attack and kill numerous high-ranking Senators and government officials.

At this point, the public will be desperate. The Jedi, the one group they'd always seen as their protectors and allies, are shown to be traitors who've just tried to overthrow the rightful government. There's a Seperatist fleet in orbit, ready to invade. Terrorists are running wild across Republic teritory, and a coup was just barely defeated. In this state of mind, the public will agree to virtualy anything I want.

So, I declare emergency powers for myself. I set up the Empire in everything but name. I do not call it the Empire. I continue calling it the Republic. Similarly, I am not the Emperor. I am still the Supreme Chancellor. Just now I have the job for life.

Now, have the Seperatist fleet routed and mostly destroyed. This will function as the turning point of the war, and will be associated with me taking greater control of the government itself. I destroy the Jedi Order, and begin a major crackdown on terrorist organisations.

With the Jedi destroyed and the terrorists under control (for now), the war starts to turn more and more in the Repiblic's favour. Again, atribute this to both the removal of the Jedi influence on the military, and my own increased influence.

Now, here's probably the biggest change of all. I do not destroy the CIS. I let them continue to exist. At the end of the war, the CIS will be reduced to a small strip of space bordering the Unkown Regions. Propaganda will claim that their holdings extend deep into the Unknown Regions, making them out to be a far larger threat than they really are.

At this point, the CIS sues for a ceasefire, which I grant. Peace follows, but it's an uneasy one as both sides are still gearing up in preparation for a war with each other. A Cold War-esque situation occurs, with both sides highly militarised and dissent brutaly surpressed. With a major enemy still out there (along with the Ssi-Ruuk and Chiss, who can also be made out to be major threats) the public will be more willing to accept a militarised state with a dictator in charge, since they view it as necessary for survival.

I revive the old pro-CIS terrorist organisations, but keep their activities very low key. Just the occasional bombing of government buildings here and there. If the Rebel Alliance does pop up in this atmosphere, not only will they be hated by the public for their seeming complicity with the enemy, but they'll also be tainted by association with hospital-bombing scum. This will make it very hard for them to recruit new members, and cause support for them to be virtualy non-existant amongst the public.

Of course, there will still be dissent and people willing to join the Rebellion, but there'll be far fewer than there was historicaly, and the very atmosphere amongst the public will make it highly unlikely for them to get support, thus making them virtualy no threat to me.
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Monroe »

Rochey wrote:

And by being ruthless you're increasing the number of people who will be trying to do just that.
On the other hand it limits their communication and ability to find each other. Its an interesting balancing act that's for sure. If both plans cause a percentage of people to rebel I still think that the plan that limits their moves / recruitment / weaponry is going to be able to survive the rebellions better.

So, here's my plan...
That plan would actually work very well. From there if you wanted to you could successfully implement a total fear plan. Once you've confirmed the Empire's existence you could make up an elaborate Jedi-CIS plot and have an excuse for a Great Purge and clear the government of all Republic-minded individuals. Establish the ISB, and really get terror rolling. If you wanted to.
How many Minbari does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
None. They always surrender right before they finish the job and never tell you why.

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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Monroe wrote:On the other hand it limits their communication and ability to find each other. Its an interesting balancing act that's for sure. If both plans cause a percentage of people to rebel I still think that the plan that limits their moves / recruitment / weaponry is going to be able to survive the rebellions better.
Aye, you may have a point.
Monroe wrote:From there if you wanted to you could successfully implement a total fear plan. Once you've confirmed the Empire's existence you could make up an elaborate Jedi-CIS plot and have an excuse for a Great Purge and clear the government of all Republic-minded individuals. Establish the ISB, and really get terror rolling. If you wanted to.
Actualy, that's exactly what I don't do.
Don't disolve the Republic. Doing so allows idealism for a greater past nation to spring up.
Don't create an atmosphere of terror and oppression. That would lead to falling support from the populace, and increased sentiment for the Rebel terrorists.
Don't purge the government of Republican idealists. Have them killed in the attempted Jedi coup.
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Monroe »

Rochey wrote:
Monroe wrote:On the other hand it limits their communication and ability to find each other. Its an interesting balancing act that's for sure. If both plans cause a percentage of people to rebel I still think that the plan that limits their moves / recruitment / weaponry is going to be able to survive the rebellions better.
Aye, you may have a point.
Monroe wrote:From there if you wanted to you could successfully implement a total fear plan. Once you've confirmed the Empire's existence you could make up an elaborate Jedi-CIS plot and have an excuse for a Great Purge and clear the government of all Republic-minded individuals. Establish the ISB, and really get terror rolling. If you wanted to.
Actualy, that's exactly what I don't do.
Don't disolve the Republic. Doing so allows idealism for a greater past nation to spring up.
Don't create an atmosphere of terror and oppression. That would lead to falling support from the populace, and increased sentiment for the Rebel terrorists.
Don't purge the government of Republican idealists. Have them killed in the attempted Jedi coup.

I'm just saying that you have created a perfect platform for my plan if you wanted :P Regardless I think you've got a strong start for either plan. I think it would do a good job of keeping the rebels from forming. And if they did form, from forming into anything more than scattered pirates.
How many Minbari does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Deepcrush »

Monroe.............. I'm still waiting for you to bring up anything that hasn't been countered..........

Rochey, if you want to lock it then go for it. I doubt he plans on growing up anytime soon over this. His been dancing the topic for the last week for nothing. I don't really see a point to this anymore.
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Monroe »

Deepcrush wrote:Monroe.............. I'm still waiting for you to bring up anything that hasn't been countered..........

Rochey, if you want to lock it then go for it. I doubt he plans on growing up anytime soon over this. His been dancing the topic for the last week for nothing. I don't really see a point to this anymore.
I have been.. but if you want to run to the mods to get it locked that's your prerogative. If you'd like better counters give then post the names of books I've been so patiently asking for that those historians wrote that have something to do with people uprising against total fear systems.

I can't counter evidence which doesn't exist so until you specify your evidence the best I can do is post more evidence that supports my claim. Its not ignoring your points, its waiting for your points to explain themselves and posting more of my own.
How many Minbari does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Deepcrush »

Monroe wrote:I have been.. but if you want to run to the mods to get it locked that's your prerogative.
You're pretty dense, even for a furball. Rochey wants to lock the thread, nobody ran to him... Try to keep up. In fact, only one person on this whole thread has gone running for help to the mods. That was YOU monroe. No one else. I never did, Stitch never did... the other mods and members never did. Only you. If you're going to act like the chakat, i'm going to treat you like the chakat. What makes all of this worse is your little god trip about how you're the OP. Which explains a little about your views on history, more over your lack of understanding. You say I have a bad track record, funny thing is that you're right. I have a bad record of bashing people for doing stupid things. But, being literal is just a personal trait. Though, we can't all be perfect like you I guess.
If you'd like better counters give then post the names of books I've been so patiently asking for that those historians wrote that have something to do with people uprising against total fear systems.
Post what books? The whole history of the Czars, Hitler, Stalin, USSR, WWII, the Terror Of France... all those little pesky history matters where terror failed to do anything other then bring people together against it? I thought that kindercare of yours taught you some history. Oh, thats right, you went to a school that doesn't teach specific history topics. You're whole point from the start is that your Uber-terror meant everyone would call you Great Father, suck you cock and pat you on the back while never lifting a finger against you. You've changed up the why you bring it in. Now you're fighting over the evidence (which has been turned against you by the same mods you begged for help) trying the "look away" trick.

For those who don't know. The "Look away" is a political spin tactic based on a "Reverse Defense" minus that the "Look Away is normally a last stand effort from a losing party. If your stance on a topic has become so weak that people are eating it alive. Sometimes all you can do is try and mound up as much evidence as you can and bury people in it. All the while saying "I must be right because I gave you a study". However, can bite you back if someone involved remembers the original topic and then questions the speaker as to "What does this have to do with your stance". Three choices and only three choices remain. The speak can - A, run like the wind, this battle is over. B, ignore the person pointing out their flaws and try to pretend it never happen. If the speaker is lucky, the other person will grow tired of trying and walk away. This means the speaker can try to claim a victory. C, Displace the defeat while trying to "Mudsling" (throwing pointless insults to cover peoples vision on a topic, or aka, throw mud in their eyes) the other person. If you can't win, try to make the other person look worse then you. By which of course leaves people thinking they have to take a side. Who do you pick? The "Mudsling" makes the other person look worse then you and with luck people will join you. However, "Mudsling" also has the requirement of the other person falling for it. Losing sight of the topic and dragging out the debate until its meaningless to which the speaker tries to switch positions and say they were on the winning side after all.

A minor rant but its very important.
Monroe wrote:I can't counter evidence which doesn't exist so until you specify your evidence the best I can do is post more evidence that supports my claim. Its not ignoring your points, its waiting for your points to explain themselves and posting more of my own.
People have been countering you this whole time. Not just me. The fact is you've ignored them time and time again. For the last 21 pages people have been explaining things to you. You still don't get it. Instead of trying to blindly slag your way through. You should go back and re-read the thread.

If you're just play the shifting game then you really don't need to be here.
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Monroe »

Deepcrush wrote: You're pretty dense, even for a furball. Rochey wants to lock the thread, nobody ran to him...
Really? my mistake...
Deepcrush wrote:Am I the only one who would like a set of Forum Rules for Debates? Not just guidelines...
Deepcrush wrote:...if you want to lock it then go for it.... I don't really see a point to this anymore.
In fact, only one person on this whole thread has gone running for help to the mods. That was YOU monroe. No one else. I never did, Stitch never did... the other mods and members never did. Only you.
Actually if you could think through the earwax between your ears I've said before I wanted an actual debate. As Stitch pointed out you did nothing but insult until page 17. I think you'd rather me have ignored you. Ever since I came back I've disproved everything you've said, or at least provided evidence that counters it. And everyone has admitted that my plan (or at least elements of it) could work but you. Some think your plan would work better, that's fine, I won't argue that since I think they're both fine plans. But people on your side have shrunk considerably to just one with your opinion of the Ultimate Fear being a load of crap. And that one is you.
If you're going to act like the chakat, i'm going to treat you like the chakat. What makes all of this worse is your little god trip about how you're the OP. Which explains a little about your views on history, more over your lack of understanding. You say I have a bad track record, funny thing is that you're right. I have a bad record of bashing people for doing stupid things. But, being literal is just a personal trait. Though, we can't all be perfect like you I guess.
I'm not perfect. I lack humility and forgiveness. But the bashing thing I suppose is normal for you. But is it normal to act like a beetle on its back since I came back into the argument with you? I constantly am throwing evidence your way and you're still on your back flaming away and wiggling your legs trying to get some kind of traction. You almost right sided yourself when you posted those historians but you rolled over onto your back again wiggling away. Wiggle little bug, wiggle.
Post what books? The whole history of the Czars, Hitler, Stalin, USSR, WWII, the Terror Of France... all those little pesky history matters
... that disagree with you? Well if you have a specific book in mind post it. Historians would be on both sides of the fence, there's enough published works out there for that. But can you find any historians who agree with you in writing? You posted names of historians who had nothing to do with the above eras. Can you explain why they're significant for the umpteenth time? Or you just going to wiggle for traction?
Oh, thats right, you went to a school that doesn't teach specific history topics.
The bane of small schools. I do have a BS :P
You're whole point from the start is that your Uber-terror meant everyone would call you Great Father, suck you cock and pat you on the back while never lifting a finger against you. You've changed up the why you bring it in. Now you're fighting over the evidence (which has been turned against you by the same mods you begged for help) trying the "look away" trick.
I explained my opinion in greater detail and provided more evidence to back it up. I never changed my opinion. If you go back and reread it, I started with very broad terms and have since narrowed it down.

For those who don't know. The "Look away" is a political spin tactic based on a "Reverse Defense" minus that the "Look Away is normally a last stand effort from a losing party. If your stance on a topic has become so weak that people are eating it alive. Sometimes all you can do is try and mound up as much evidence as you can and bury people in it.
Well isn't that a convenient scapegoat. *Person posts evidence* "Omg! Its the 'Look away' spin tactic!" I guess that's one thing you'll never have to worry about since you don't post evidence.

C, Displace the defeat while trying to "Mudsling" (throwing pointless insults to cover peoples vision on a topic, or aka, throw mud in their eyes) the other person.
Your favorite tactic right? Thankfully I can respond to your mud while posting more evidence you ignore.


People have been countering you this whole time. Not just me. The fact is you've ignored them time and time again. For the last 21 pages people have been explaining things to you. You still don't get it. Instead of trying to blindly slag your way through. You should go back and re-read the thread.
I wouldn't say I've been ignoring anyone else but you on occasion. Rochey while we don't agree 100% do you feel slighted and feel that I ignored you? Does anyone feel like I've ignored them? I think with everyone else we've had a very robust and fun debate.
Deepcrush wrote:Notice no one (other then stitch) ever disagreed... The opinion is pretty much universal minus most don't add the flare that I do... <Few posts later> Wrong. The good old furball like to make things up. No one educated on the subjects here has disagreed with me. Why? Because they studied the same things. But, if you need me to tell you that WW2 happened, that the Terror happened in France and that the Red Revolt happened in Russia... then you really shouldn't be part of this debate.
I particularly love this quote. Now that everyone has at some point disagreed with you I seriously :laughroll: 'd at this. Then you look at recent posts, and even those of people who would much rather go with your plan agree mine has merit and could be enacted. Like I said I'm not going to argue against your plan, its a fine plan, but the sooner you let go that everyone else thinks my plan is crazy the better you'll be as a person.

Once again, look at the Revolutions of 1848. There's a reason England and Russia did not have them.
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Deepcrush »

Round and round your bullshit goes... notice... I don't care.

If I'm ignoring anything, get someone to point it out. Not you, because then I'd be countering the same crap year after year. Get someone who is trustworthy so when they say I haven't countered properly I can believe them. There are plenty of people here to pick from.

We've gone a whole week of you crying without any results. If this is all you have, why do you bother?
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Monroe »

You know, I was thinking, as I was reading the latest comments in the Crossover RP. I really don't want this disagreement, Deep, to interfere with our cooperation on the forum as a whole. I know this kind of goes against my last post but if you want to call end with me, we can just leave it at that and let whoever reads the thread decide who won the argument. I think my opinion is on pretty solid grounds as I'm sure you believe your own opinion is. There's not going to be a whole lot more we can say to persuade each other.
How many Minbari does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Monroe »

Deepcrush wrote:
We've gone a whole week of you crying without any results. If this is all you have, why do you bother?
I guess you and I just measure results differently ;)
How many Minbari does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
None. They always surrender right before they finish the job and never tell you why.

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Re: You Crush the Rebellion

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Alright, that's it. I'm now officialy putting an end to this little flamewar before it starts up yet again. Thread locked. If you want it re-opened, PM me with reasons why.
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