STXI Nit

Discussion of the new run of Star Trek XI+ movies and any spinoffs

Re: STXI Nit

Postby stitch626 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:19 pm

Mikey wrote:Visual observation isn't reliable for determining particle density. the more opaque appearance could just be due to brighter luminosity stemming from the greater power usage/output. Who knows, really? The Klingon disruptors to which I referred were beam weapons, as (IIRC) were all Klingon disruptors we've ever seen. Apples to apples.

Fair point on visual observations.

So, for the Klingon hyandheld disruptors, the reason we have never seen kickback is because of their beam nature, which would have less force on the hand of the person than a pulse weapon. However, the pulses of the BoP clearly knocked back the barrel of their disruptors.


Mark wrote:Actually, what your most likely seeing is an inexperienced shooter anticipating the recoil. I learned to shoot when I was 11, and taught my sisters when I was around 15 (they are 13,16,20,and 22 years older than me ). I taught them with both a .38 snub and a .22 taurus revolver. After firing the .38, the seemed to throw their hands up with the .22 as if expecting a kick.

Thats possible. I don't know enough about guns to say otherwise.

The M-16 (5.56) is BASICALLY the same as a .22 shell, and as a demonstration for guys in basic we used to brace them off our forehead, chins, and balls. Trust me when I say the recoil is insignificant.

Couldn't that be due to the design of the gun?
One of the few areas I've never bothered to look at (extensively) was the physics of firearms, so I'm just making guesses for a lot of it.
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
User avatar
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 9521
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: Romulus

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Tyyr » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:19 pm

If you can't hold onto a fucking .22 then you need to turn in your balls and apply for a skirt.

Actually that's degrading to women, a woman can hold a .22 on target no problem.
User avatar
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: STXI Nit

Postby stitch626 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:21 pm

Tyyr wrote:If you can't hold onto a f***ing .22 then you need to turn in your balls and apply for a skirt.

Actually that's degrading to women, a woman can hold a .22 on target no problem.

Well, I've never handled a gun, only seen others.
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
User avatar
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 9521
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: Romulus

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Nickswitz » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:22 pm

stitch626 wrote:Couldn't that be due to the design of the gun?One of the few areas I've never bothered to look at (extensively) was the physics of firearms, so I'm just making guesses for a lot of it.


Well, this is somewhat true. The design of the gun can affect the kickback, the design of a .22, won't.
The world ended

"Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world" - R.D.Lang
User avatar
Nickswitz
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 6747
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Home

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Tyyr » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:30 pm

There's not enough there. About the only way to do it would be to make the gun as small and lightweight as possible and move the chamber as far above or below the wrist as possible. Even then... there's just not enough force to really mess you up unless you just make the thing as horrifically unergonomic as possible.
User avatar
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: STXI Nit

Postby stitch626 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:48 pm

Tyyr wrote:There's not enough there. About the only way to do it would be to make the gun as small and lightweight as possible and move the chamber as far above or below the wrist as possible. Even then... there's just not enough force to really mess you up unless you just make the thing as horrifically unergonomic as possible.

Got it, so a if theres kickback with a 22, it would most likely be that the person is used to something bigger and overanticipated...
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
User avatar
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 9521
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: Romulus

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Tyyr » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:01 pm

Or is a complete pussy, yes.
User avatar
Tyyr
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 10654
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: Jeri Ryan's Dressing Room, Shhhhh

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Graham Kennedy » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:05 am

One can argue for some sort of recoil cancelling technology on the phaser. As evidence, in ST III Kirk shoots a Klingon and the shot flings the guy like ten feet backwards. Conservation of momentum would indicate that firing such a shot should also throw Kirk back equally (or close to equally anyway, depending on how his mass compared to the Klingons).

Yet it doesn't.

As for vapourising, phasers that can heat rock to 8000 degrees (ref "That Which Survives") are certainly capable of vapourising a person, and are referred to as doing so many times. Foolish to argue otherwise, IMO. The real question is, where does the vapour go? If we want to invoke NDF/phaserising, apply it to that instead.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8280
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Mikey » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:00 am

stitch626 wrote:However, the pulses of the BoP clearly knocked back the barrel of their disruptors.


That seemed more a function of the mechanism rather than a reaction to the discharge.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33170
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Sionnach Glic » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:42 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:One can argue for some sort of recoil cancelling technology on the phaser. As evidence, in ST III Kirk shoots a Klingon and the shot flings the guy like ten feet backwards. Conservation of momentum would indicate that firing such a shot should also throw Kirk back equally (or close to equally anyway, depending on how his mass compared to the Klingons).

Yet it doesn't.


I think earlier on in the thread I suggested that there may be some sort of miniaturised inertial dampners in the phasers. It'd pretty ridiculously complex for just a gun, but it's certainly something I wouldn't have any problems imagining Starfleet doing. They're not exactly into low-tech sollutions.

WRT the "vapourisation", I tend to just assume the term is being used coloquially, much like the term "blueprint" is still used today. As to how it works, no idea. I just assume disintegration of some form. It being actual vapourisation, even if we assume the lack of vapour is just an FX error, still brings up far too many problems for my liking.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
User avatar
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Graham Kennedy » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:01 pm

The TNG TM posits some sort of as yet unknown cascade effect which involves matter transitioning into subspace. There's not a lot of detail given though.

It kind of makes sense if the target moves into subspace as it vapourises; would explain why we don't see the vapour.

WRT the "vapourisation", I tend to just assume the term is being used coloquially, much like the term "blueprint" is still used today.


Since the lack of vapour can already be explained by a process we're assuming exists either way, then I don't really see the need for that assumption. Like I said, phasers are expected to be able to heat rock to thousands of degrees. We know that even in the Enterprise era, even the stun setting could be used to boil water. I'd be kind of surprised if they were not vapourising bodies whilst doing whatever else.

Oh, it's worth noting also that in "Obsession", Kirk orders his men to "Set your phasers on disrupter beam. If you see any gaseous cloud, fire immediately." Later on he orders "I want four men armed with phaser two set for disrupter effect."

Which makes it seem like phasers have disrupter beam settings as an additional, separate-from-normal capability.

Which if so, indicates that phasers can heat/vapourise, stun, possibly do some wacky subspace transfer effect, AND have a disrupter effect as well.

And that's before we even get into the idea that they can fire nanoprobes. :)
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8280
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Mark » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:38 pm

Seconded. That was one of the dumbest things that trek writers did. Instead of coming up with something original as a delievery system, they suddenly made phasers able to shoot nanoprobes.
They say that in the Army,
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
User avatar
Mark
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 17671
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:49 pm
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Sionnach Glic » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:44 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:The TNG TM posits some sort of as yet unknown cascade effect which involves matter transitioning into subspace. There's not a lot of detail given though.

It kind of makes sense if the target moves into subspace as it vapourises; would explain why we don't see the vapour.


Not a bad idea. Though then I'm left with the question of "why bother"? If the phaser has some sort of ability to transfer matter to subspace, why not just skip the vapourising (which alone would take shitloads of energy, presumably) and just transfer the whole body to subspace without changing the state?

Also, and do correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the energy required to vapourise a human also cause his clothes to burst into flames? I'd imagine that the ignition temperature of fabric would be less than the vapourising temperature of flesh and bone. The fact that there are no visible effects on fabrics either being worn or being stood on (all those carpets on the E-D) leads me to believe that the "vapourise" setting doesn't actually involve all that much heat, even during the "slow" vapourisations. Thus I tend to favour some sort of technobabble sollution. The idea of the victim being tossed into subspace is a pretty interesting one, I think.

GrahamKennedy wrote:Since the lack of vapour can already be explained by a process we're assuming exists either way, then I don't really see the need for that assumption. Like I said, phasers are expected to be able to heat rock to thousands of degrees. We know that even in the Enterprise era, even the stun setting could be used to boil water. I'd be kind of surprised if they were not vapourising bodies whilst doing whatever else.


While it may seem like a pretty clear-cut case, I'm still somewhat unsure about the heat effects of a phaser beam. As I pointed out above, clothing is rarely (if ever?) damaged by being hit. And if a stun setting can boil water, you'd surely expect some sort of scorch marks on the clothes worn, yet we rarely see such effects.

Personally, I tend to just shove the phaser beam's mechanics under the "inexplicable technobabble" heading. It solves a lot of these problems. :lol:

GrahamKennedy wrote:Oh, it's worth noting also that in "Obsession", Kirk orders his men to "Set your phasers on disrupter beam. If you see any gaseous cloud, fire immediately." Later on he orders "I want four men armed with phaser two set for disrupter effect."

Which makes it seem like phasers have disrupter beam settings as an additional, separate-from-normal capability.

Which if so, indicates that phasers can heat/vapourise, stun, possibly do some wacky subspace transfer effect, AND have a disrupter effect as well.


Hmm, interesting. Perhaps the disruptor effect was simply a sort of pulse-fire mode, as opposed to the continuous beam we usually see? It'd certainly save on ammo.

GrahamKennedy wrote:And that's before we even get into the idea that they can fire nanoprobes.


Who the hell did Starfleet contract to design these things? The Swiss?
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
User avatar
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Mikey » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:47 pm

If the phaser beam imparts that much heat, then vaporization at those settings wouldn't be an option - it would be simply part and parcel of the effect. In other words, if the phaser beam transfers that much heat, then the target will be vaporized... nobody has to add a particular vaporization setting.

As to clothing, etc.: I'd imagine that if enough heat was imparted quickly enough, there would be no discernable ignition, and kit would be vaporized along with meat.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33170
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: STXI Nit

Postby Captain Seafort » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:53 pm

Sionnach Glic wrote:While it may seem like a pretty clear-cut case, I'm still somewhat unsure about the heat effects of a phaser beam. As I pointed out above, clothing is rarely (if ever?) damaged by being hit. And if a stun setting can boil water, you'd surely expect some sort of scorch marks on the clothes worn, yet we rarely see such effects.


Absolutely. A DET weapon would not magically stop at the soles of the feet of the person being shot, unlike a phaser. The effects would also be different depending on the mass of the target, rather than having identical effects (i.e. person disappears) against small women (The Vengeance Factor) and large men (most examples).

It would also be very hard to explain the problems they apparently have with 20th century tires and mudflaps (Future's End).
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 15015
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

PreviousNext

Return to Abrams Universe

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest