STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS!!!

Discussion of the new run of Star Trek XI+ movies and any spinoffs

Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby IanKennedy » Tue May 28, 2013 8:35 pm

Nutso wrote:So when Khan has his wrath, it's going to be directed against Spock and not Kirk?

I'm not sure either is really applicable. Given Spock nor Kirk actually killed any of his people. Sure they blew up his ship but only because he was about to do the same thing himself. Personally, I don't want a repeat of that film, I don't really see the point. We know the outcome and half of the things in the film have already appeared in this film.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby Tyyr » Wed May 29, 2013 2:06 pm

With respect to Marcus and the torpedoes I didn't have an issue with it. First, Kirk was closer to Pike than anyone else and watching him die in his arms left him emotionally comprimised. Given the time frame from orders to kill Harrison to execution you're looking at a day at most, maybe two. I don't think it's really that out there to expect a hot head maverick like Kirk to be pissed off still and when handed a big bomb and given orders to kill Harrison to do just that without asking many questions. After all he just accepted Scotty's resignation, on the spot, just to get the torps aboard. Then there's the difficulty of getting the things open. There's a good chance Marcus couldn't get them open or decided it wasn't worth it just to kill someone in suspended animation who'd die anyways once the torp was set off. Finally, yeah I think Marcus is just that big a dick to enjoy the irony of killing Khan with torpedos full of his own people. After all this was the guy who was going to blow away the Federation's flagship and even taunted Kirk about never letting his crew live. The guy was an asshole.

The blood thing? They didn't know if any of the other's blood would do it. Now they could have set that up earlier but they didn't, and given Khan's position as leader of the super men it's not that out there to think he might have had an additional edge. However, snap his neck, he'll still have six pints of blood to use. It's not going to go bad in the two or three minutes it'll take to beam him to sickbay and suck him dry.

You are right but (as has been demonstrated several times) they are too dangerous to keep them alive, look all the damage Khan did by himself, imagine 73 of them.

Which is still not enough to summarily execute them in today's legal system, forget the Fed's. And frankly, I'd rather it never be sufficent cause to summarily execute someone. "Eh, your racial group is likely to cause havoc and crime, so we're going to preemptively execute you." I have a hard time imagining any civilized society having that kind of policy.

Ok, actual thoughts on the movie.

It was... ok. On par with First Contact, but no II or VI.

First off, I like J.J. Abrams, the man restarted Star Trek after B&B tried to kill it with Voyager, Enterprise, and the entire TNG movie franchise. ST:09 was a pretty good flick, reset up the cast, and was fun. Yeah the villian blew but on the whole the movie was enjoyable. So was this one, but we're seeing how long term J.J.'s style isn't going to work with Trek. My biggest issue with this movie is it wouldn't stop moving. Just for a moment. That's all I wanted. Just for a moment fucking STOP. It's one constant flurry of activity after another. There's no real pauses, no real chances to catch your breath just BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM, plot point, action, plot point, action, joke, plot point, plot point, joke, action. It's just unrelenting. The few times the movie did slow for a character moment it didn't dwell on it or the aftermath but catapulted right back into the action. For a "cerebral" franchise I find it grating that no one is slowing down and talking nearly enough.

Ok, first off the Villian. I liked this Khan. As much as Roberto. He does a great job conveying that Khan really is superior to then in every way. I never got the feeling from Roberto's playing of him that he was really any better but just thought he was. Mentally he was ahead of Kirk but it rarely felt like it was because he was brilliant but just because he was smart and ruthless. That said, I just really don't feel the connection with Khan. Yes, they aped his name and backstory but beyond that he's just not TOS Khan at all, so why bother? Cumberpatch's rendition is so far off TOS Khan that the connection is actually distracting. Quinto, Pine, Urban, Peg, all the new cast are their own characters but you can see the TOS chracters in them. Khan? Not so much. I enjoyed him, more so when they were just calling him John Harrison.

I loved main engineering ESPECIALLY the warp core. This kind of thing is far more familiar to someone like me than the surgical suite nature of main engineering in TNG and Voyager. It looks like a working piece of machinery rather than an overgrown centerpiece. I really hope that future iterations of Trek keep using this kind of industrial design for the engineering sections.

Sulu, he got one big moment where he was in the big chair but damn. I gotta agree with Bones, do not piss Sulu off. Please give him a bigger role in the next movie.

Uhura got a bit more screen time it felt like, but it was screen time having relationship drama with Spock. I... liked it? Yeah, I liked it. Lets be honest, she's the switchboard operator for the ship. I also enjoy the dynamic of her and Spock. Him coldly logical and her even more passionate than Kirk. It plays with my love of opposites attracting. She did get a chance to tell Kirk to sit down and chill though which helped out Kirk's story and had her facing down a dozen Klingons unarmed. Really wish Khan had given her more of a chance to talk the Klingons down.

Karl Urban continues to be the perfect Bones. That's not to say that Quinto and Pine aren't nailing their roles, they are, but Urban is McCoy. The problem right now is that the TOS dynamic hasn't been fully established. Spock is cooly logical but Kirk is as passionate and firing from the hip emotional as McCoy ever was. The good news is this movie finally hammered Kirk into the form he would have in TOS which should allow McCoy to be the voice of emotion in the future while Kirk splits the difference between him and Spock with added awesome.

Chekov, thank you for tossing the wunderkid in the deep end and having him struggle. He couldn't just replace Scotty and he's fucking 18. I liked having him be out of his element and unsure. Again, let there be a Chekov/Sulu plotline in the next movie, let them have their day in the limelight after two Kirk/Spock movies.

Simon Peg does very well as Scotty. I think his scene of complaining about the new torps was well done, as was the shock on his face when Kirk accepted it. Again my only complaint is that there wasn't enough of him. That's the problem when you have seven great actors in the leading roles, finding time for all of them.

Zach Quinto again nails Spock. It's not about having no emotions, it's about controling the ones he has. Spock was never an automaton, he just didn't let his emotions get the better of him and his relationship with Uhura as well as his growing friendship with Kirk. In fact his scene with Kirk as he was dying was great... just marred by the distraction of them aping WoK's lines (seriously, write your own, we know what the scene is calling back to, we don't need you xeroxing the script) and... well that scream. It doesn't work with Spock, not even in that scene. Even when he's losing it watching Kirk die he's desperately trying to control it. That kind of outburst doesn't fit. His rage would be far better shown by his beating Khan senseless at the end.

Chris Pine acted his ass off here and this movie turned the Apple chomping Kobyashi Maru cheater into the Kirk we're familiar with, violently grinding off all that over confidence, smug, and recklessness, tempering him. It made up a lot of the ground that 2009 gave up by throwing him in the captain's chair so quick. The downside, with how face paced the movie was he had the Enterprise taken away in one scene and was right back in charge not ten minutes later. So it's not perfect.

I did like that they showed why the Prime Directive exists, even if its a rather hamfisted way of doing it. Why weren't they in orbit?

On the whole it was a descent action movie that finished the character arcs of Spoke and Kirk to mature them. The downside is that its frantic pace showed the limits of JJ's directing style and how it's probably not a bad thing he's moving on.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby Captain Picard's Hair » Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:30 am

I didn't see this mentioned (though I could have missed it): if Marcus wanted Khan dead, and at best didn't care about the fate of Enterprise, why bother asking for Khan to be transported when he could have just destroyed Enterprise with Khan and the other men in the torpedoes aboard? Not only was it unnecessary to have Khan in person, it was dangerous (as Khan later proved).
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby Black Jesus » Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:10 am

Tyyr wrote:
First off, I like J.J. Abrams, the man restarted Star Trek after B&B tried to kill it with Voyager, Enterprise, and the entire TNG movie franchise. ST:09 was a pretty good flick, reset up the cast, and was fun. Yeah the villian blew but on the whole the movie was enjoyable. So was this one, but we're seeing how long term J.J.'s style isn't going to work with Trek. My biggest issue with this movie is it wouldn't stop moving. Just for a moment. That's all I wanted. Just for a moment fucking STOP. It's one constant flurry of activity after another. There's no real pauses, no real chances to catch your breath just BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM, plot point, action, plot point, action, joke, plot point, plot point, joke, action. It's just unrelenting. The few times the movie did slow for a character moment it didn't dwell on it or the aftermath but catapulted right back into the action. For a "cerebral" franchise I find it grating that no one is slowing down and talking nearly enough.



You've touched on a big issue with today's cinema, most of it is fast-paced, mindless spectacle with little to no thought given to plot, continuity, character, or story. The first JJ Trek fell in this category, the latest is a continuation of the same. Rapid jumps and cuts, glib dialogue, constant movement, action for action's sake, needless special effects that don't advance the story--all seem to be the unfortunate mainstays of current movies. As though they're being made solely for the ADHD.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby Coalition » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:13 am

What could have been the option for the torpedoes is firing Khan's supermen at Kronos, is setting up a massive underground resistance. The supermen will obviously look different than the Klingons, so the Klingons will attack.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby Atekimogus » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:14 pm

Hate to ressurct an old thread but coming late to the party......


I have a small question, where on the Enterprise are the torpedo tubes? I just cannot make out where they are supposed to be on the ship but when we see them loading (when Sulu makes his threat to Khan) it almost looks like a broadside somewhere on the saucer section.


(Sorry if that was answered somewhere already)
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby McAvoy » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:56 pm

Actually I kinda remember it being mounted broadside like in the engineering hull. But that could be my mind playing tricks with me.

If the ship was designed like the original movie Enterprise then it would be at the base of the neck in which the new Enterprise does have that feature.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby Tsukiyumi » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:35 am

In the 2009 film, we see the torpedoes firing from the regular neck position like the TMP refit. In STID, there is a sequence with a shitload of hatches opening along the engineering hull like broadside launchers; I haven't rewatched it yet, but I couldn't tell if those were standard launchers, or jury-rigged somehow. If those are regular launchers, GK is going to have to seriously alter the entry on the main page.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby stitch626 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:21 pm

They looked to me like rigged escape pod launchers, modified for the much larger torpedos (these torps are larger than the ones seen in the first one).
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby Atekimogus » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:39 pm

Tyyr wrote:First off, I like J.J. Abrams, the man restarted Star Trek after B&B tried to kill it with Voyager, Enterprise, and the entire TNG movie franchise. ST:09 was a pretty good flick, reset up the cast, and was fun. Yeah the villian blew but on the whole the movie was enjoyable. So was this one, but we're seeing how long term J.J.'s style isn't going to work with Trek. My biggest issue with this movie is it wouldn't stop moving. Just for a moment. That's all I wanted. Just for a moment fucking STOP. It's one constant flurry of activity after another.


Just watched it two days ago and I agree. It is an enjoyable and fun ride.......but there is zero character development and at times it felt really really rushed. Now I quite liked it to the point were the Vengeance showed up (loved how Scotty resigned over a small technicallity, whereas altough they argue against it, the rest of the crew is well prepared to go on a mission better suited for a hitman. Makes Scotty the most moral character in the whole new franchise, quite the achievement for what is basically a comic relief character)....everything after that felt lazy, rushed and ironically unexciting.

Sometimes it is better to have a calm setting to convey tension and expecially the scene where the enterprise is sucked into earths gravity could have used a calmer hand. Compare this to wrath of khan and the enterprise trying to flee the explosion or star trek VI when they travel towards kithomer......nothing is going on in those scene, just showing the crew sweating and shitting their pants at what is to come....but the tension is much higher than in this flurry of activity.

At least they could have taken the time and make a nod to why there is no other starship in the vicinity of earth able to help them in time. Altough I find it unlikely, they could at least have made a mention. (But then I hated the whole scene bascially. It came out of nowhere, makes zero sense, happens way to fast......it was just a shitty and contrived scene)

But the biggest problem for me, besides the constant flurry of activity is just this.....that I don't really like that they rehashed Khan for it. Just think for a moment....if they completely left the "I am Khan" part out of the film and let him stay "John Harrison" an absolutely brilliant agent of section 31 now turned terrorist......would anything change? Nope, not really. Sure, instead of gen-enhanced strength he would utilize more kung fu or some shit as super-special agent....but KHAN was not needed in this plot. (Actually a disillusioned ex-agent turning on the faulty system he helped would have given us a much deeper character......I am really not so sure about Khans motivation at all.)

I love the new setting and the new look of things and I love the cast...............I hate that they have not enough creativity in them to come up with a new story, new villains and just are constantly playing the nostalgia card. (And Spock yodelling Khan......that was the low-point of the movie).
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby SomosFuga » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:14 am

Atekimogus wrote:But the biggest problem for me, besides the constant flurry of activity is just this.....that I don't really like that they rehashed Khan for it. Just think for a moment....if they completely left the "I am Khan" part out of the film and let him stay "John Harrison" an absolutely brilliant agent of section 31 now turned terrorist......would anything change? Nope, not really. Sure, instead of gen-enhanced strength he would utilize more kung fu or some shit as super-special agent....but KHAN was not needed in this plot. (Actually a disillusioned ex-agent turning on the faulty system he helped would have given us a much deeper character......I am really not so sure about Khans motivation at all.)


Very good point, plus they could have saved Khan for the next one with a better story with a more seasoned crew.

I also don´t like the level of automatization of the Vengance. If they can suddenly make a huge ship which can be crewed by just a couple of guys why the hell they usually have hundreds of crew members.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby Graham Kennedy » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:57 am

SomosFuga wrote:I also don´t like the level of automatization of the Vengance. If they can suddenly make a huge ship which can be crewed by just a couple of guys why the hell they usually have hundreds of crew members.

You could say the same about Star Trek III, or any of the various other times we've seen a ship operated by a tiny crew.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby Tsukiyumi » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:59 am

While you could argue that that was a recent development in STIII, the new timeline seems to be more advanced in a lot of ways. Tracking phaser pulses? Super long range torpedoes? Ships bigger than anything bar Romulan Warbirds or Voth and Borg designs (or the First Federation vessel)? Transwarp beaming?

There is a lot of it, and it can be explained quite easily by the Federation's engineering and scientific muscle being used to fight a perceived new Romulan threat.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby Graham Kennedy » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:36 am

Tsukiyumi wrote:While you could argue that that was a recent development in STIII,

You'd be wrong if you did. Phlox operated Enterprise for several days alone in Doctor's Orders, remember?

the new timeline seems to be more advanced in a lot of ways. Tracking phaser pulses? Super long range torpedoes? Ships bigger than anything bar Romulan Warbirds or Voth and Borg designs (or the First Federation vessel)? Transwarp beaming?

There is a lot of it, and it can be explained quite easily by the Federation's engineering and scientific muscle being used to fight a perceived new Romulan threat.

Indeed.
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Re: STID review/discussion for those who've seen it SPOILERS

Postby Tyyr » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:07 pm

In most cases it's been stated that ships can operate with much reduced crews, but performance suffers and obviously there's no way you can stay up on maintenance. The Vengeance's reduced crew may not have been standard, just what they had in spacedock at the time to go chase after the Enterprise. Given how utterly they outclassed the Ent they may have had enough to get by without a full crew.
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