Windows?

Discussion of the new run of Star Trek XI+ movies and any spinoffs

Re: Windows?

Postby IanKennedy » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:38 am

Atekimogus wrote:That is true. However one would also assume that there is not really a need for welding panels anymore or that panels have slightly different colours because of material differences. (As soon as you can transport matter and manipulate it on a molecular level I would assume they have some form of "welding" that is pretty much seamless, leaving only a few panels removable they need in a hurry or for mainenance.)

Ironically, the original Enterprise (not the remastered) - because of this lack of detail - looks in that regard the most advanced of all. No aztec or welding marks visible.

The idea of the remastered was to say look the marking was there all along and old SD TV sets simply couldn't show it to you properly. In universe the NX-01 comes before the E-nil and that does have panels that can be removed and replaced, as seen in Minefield, As does the refit e-nil and all the ships that follow it. I can see no reason to believe the E-nil wasn't always that way.
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Re: Windows?

Postby Atekimogus » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:56 am

I am not saying the E-nil does not have removable panels, just that you don't see them (originally) which made it look more advanced, sleek and less uboat to me. (And yes, also less detailed)

As I said, considering 24th century tech one would assume that the welding process (if there is any) is so seemless as to be unnoticable, even from up close, which it pretty much is, if there weren't the aztec pattern on ship like the GCS all you would see is the deflector grid.

OOU the only reason the pattern is there is to make the ship look bigger and more detailed, however I was wondering if someone ever came up with a good IU reason as to why we have two distinctivly different coloured panels laid out in an exact pattern across the ship. And if it is just paintjob...why bother?
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Re: Windows?

Postby IanKennedy » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:26 am

Atekimogus wrote:I am not saying the E-nil does not have removable panels, just that you don't see them (originally) which made it look more advanced, sleek and less uboat to me. (And yes, also less detailed)

As I said, considering 24th century tech one would assume that the welding process (if there is any) is so seemless as to be unnoticable, even from up close, which it pretty much is, if there weren't the aztec pattern on ship like the GCS all you would see is the deflector grid.

OOU the only reason the pattern is there is to make the ship look bigger and more detailed, however I was wondering if someone ever came up with a good IU reason as to why we have two distinctivly different coloured panels laid out in an exact pattern across the ship. And if it is just paintjob...why bother?

It's quite easy to come up with a reason for it in universe. It could be as simple as each colour has different screening capabilities. When I say screening I'm not talking about preventing different types of radiation from penetrating the hull. Some equipment may require to be screened from zippo radiation while other areas require screening from gamma and zippo. With the number of different forms of radiation detailed in trek you could easily account for the patterning on the hull.
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Re: Windows?

Postby Atekimogus » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:59 pm

Sounds flimsy to be honest. Sure the premise sounds reasonable but why then scatter the equipment with special screening needs all over the ship and if that is absolutely essential why then in a more or less exact aztec pattern? If it is really there to screen something you would expect a more reasonable pattern conforming more to the internal layout of the ship, not a relativly random aztec pattern.

Has Andrew Probert ever given any IU explanation for the aztec pattern? (Considering that he came up with it afaik).
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Re: Windows?

Postby IanKennedy » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:30 pm

Atekimogus wrote:Sounds flimsy to be honest. Sure the premise sounds reasonable but why then scatter the equipment with special screening needs all over the ship and if that is absolutely essential why then in a more or less exact aztec pattern? If it is really there to screen something you would expect a more reasonable pattern conforming more to the internal layout of the ship, not a relativly random aztec pattern.

Has Andrew Probert ever given any IU explanation for the aztec pattern? (Considering that he came up with it afaik).

Why do you assume you can put all the items of the same type in one location. Doing that with sensors, for example, means you can only scan in one direction. The same goes for any other type of sensing devices. One man's random is another man's meaningful pattern.
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Re: Windows?

Postby Atekimogus » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:42 pm

Well mostly because we have a pretty good idea where every major system is located on those ships, especially on the GCS and nothing there suggest the need for an aztec pattern across the entire hull. You find that pattern on the whole ship no matter if we know that there is crew quarters or on the warp engine paneling.

So if your theory would have any merrit we would see a more clear cut pattern, like for example, a certain paneling around the warp drive, around the computer core, around the main sensors (which actually have no paneling at all on the GCS, or a completely different, depending on how you like to view it).

And even if we assume that there are system-wide systems in need of special panels, like computer or plasma lines or just simple plumbing the pattern should then conform more to the deck structure. Having a GCS model at hand it is just way to random. If you take for example the paneling on the main saucer where the crew quarters are you have one aztec paneling above a crew quarter and right next to it the same just with switched colours. Sometimes the paneling cuts a room in half, so one half of a room is shielded against something, the other not? Doesn't make much sense imho.

I am not saying it is completely impossible......given from what we know of the ships though.....it seems rather improbable. The explanation that it is also IU just a paintjob because they think it looks pretty seems positivley convincing in comparission, just imho.
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Re: Windows?

Postby IanKennedy » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:54 pm

Atekimogus wrote:Well mostly because we have a pretty good idea where every major system is located on those ships, especially on the GCS and nothing there suggest the need for an aztec pattern across the entire hull. You find that pattern on the whole ship no matter if we know that there is crew quarters or on the warp engine paneling.

Really? You know where every sensor is? I think you'll find you don't. You know where the major components are but not down to the individual sensor devices.

So if your theory would have any merrit we would see a more clear cut pattern, like for example, a certain paneling around the warp drive, around the computer core, around the main sensors (which actually have no paneling at all on the GCS, or a completely different, depending on how you like to view it).

You are thinking on the wrong scale. I'm not talking about major components I'm talking about smaller parts like sensors. We know that they can sense all sorts of different types of radiation. Do you think that is possible, over the entire surface of the ship, with just one small box located in a fixed location? No real system could do that. You would have to be looking through the ship to see things on the other side. The sensor array must be distributed around the surface of the ship. Thus my comment.

And even if we assume that there are system-wide systems in need of special panels, like computer or plasma lines or just simple plumbing the pattern should then conform more to the deck structure. Having a GCS model at hand it is just way to random. If you take for example the paneling on the main saucer where the crew quarters are you have one aztec paneling above a crew quarter and right next to it the same just with switched colours. Sometimes the paneling cuts a room in half, so one half of a room is shielded against something, the other not? Doesn't make much sense imho.

Again you are thinking too large scale. Rooms etc are not the issue, every room need pretty much the same sort of shielding.

I am not saying it is completely impossible......given from what we know of the ships though.....it seems rather improbable. The explanation that it is also IU just a paintjob because they think it looks pretty seems positivley convincing in comparission, just imho.

I disagree, because it looks pretty is a pretty dumb reason to me.
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Re: Windows?

Postby Atekimogus » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:36 pm

IanKennedy wrote:Really? You know where every sensor is? I think you'll find you don't. You know where the major components are but not down to the individual sensor devices.


Well we know where most of the sensor devices are located (and depending on how generous you are regarding the techmanual even the smaller ones) and since we never hear about a systemwide ship spread out all over the ship in an aztec pattern it seems to me that it falls to you convincing me that it actually exist. Differently coloured panels laid out in an exact pattern might be a clue, I just find it not a very convincing one, sorry.

IanKennedy wrote:You are thinking on the wrong scale. I'm not talking about major components I'm talking about smaller parts like sensors. We know that they can sense all sorts of different types of radiation. Do you think that is possible, over the entire surface of the ship, with just one small box located in a fixed location? No real system could do that. You would have to be looking through the ship to see things on the other side. The sensor array must be distributed around the surface of the ship. Thus my comment.


I get what you are saying but I stand by that if that where the case it would not lead to an aztec pattern. You build a system and if you have to distribute it over the ship it would lead to an even pattern, like if every aztec were the same from panel to panel, however they are completely inverted. Now you can try to explain that away it does however get ever more unlikely imho. Here is the pattern:

Image

As you can see it's exactly the same from panel to panel, just inverted. Now who would build a system that way?

IanKennedy wrote:Again you are thinking too large scale. Rooms etc are not the issue, every room need pretty much the same sort of shielding.


Actually I think I am thinking on to small a scale. After thinking about it a bit I think your idea HAS merrit however it needs a bit modification, please bear with me a bit.
When thinking about why they would either paint their ships in this aztec pattern or make slightly different panels I couldn't really come up with a good reason for it, your idea of shielding certain ship-systems seems flimsy because noone would build a system according to this shape. However then I thought how does it look like? Well, it looks like a bit like cameouflage. Cameouflage in space? In white? Well scratch that. But then I thought maybe it actually is some sort of cameouflage.

So instead of shielding certain ship systems, sensors in your example, maybe the pattern helps to actually reduce the signature of the ship by passivly canceling out/scattering certain forms of radiation or heat or other waveforms, helping to reduce the radiation profile of the ship making it harder to detect. So basically a bit of an inversion of your idea. What do you think?
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