Lithuania Is First Country to Arm Ukraine Against Russia

[Nutso]

Or will be.

http://uatoday.tv/politics/lithuania-to ... 42955.html

Vilnius says other NATO members should follow Lithuania's example

Lithuania's ambassador to Ukraine says Vilnius is ready to start shipping defensive weapons to Ukraine to help the country stop Russia seizing more of its territory.

Marius Yanukonis told Ukraine's Channel 5 that Lithuania wanted to be the first country to openly arm Ukraine and hoped it would set an example to other NATO countries which he said should follow suit.

The move came as US Senator John McCain, during a trip to Kyiv, piled more pressure on the Obama administration saying the US must do more to deter Russia from escalating its military operations in Ukraine. McCain said that the US must arm Ukraine without delay before Putin became more emboldened.

John McCain, Republican US Senator: "The House of Representatives feels the same, overwhelming majority of American people feel the same. I can't answer for the president of the United States and his administrations, except to say that I know that this is shameful, shameful that we would not provide them with weapons to defend themselves. They are fighting with 20th century weapons against Russia's 20st century weapons. That's not a fair fight."

NATO has been holding military drills across several Eastern European countries in recent weeks as a way of reassuring NATO-member countries there unnerved by Russia's invasion of Ukraine; but Kyiv is hoping for more US support.

Last week the US Congress passed the National Defence Authorization Act (NDAA) which includes a provision that would give President Barack Obama's administration USD 300 million for Ukrainian security assistance if Obama signs the bill.

US military advisors are already training the Ukrainian military. About 300 US paratroopers arrived in Ukraine in April to train Kyiv's National Guard.

Britain has already sent military personnel to train Ukrainian troops, while Canada and Poland have pledged to send 200 and 50 instructors respectively this year. But Western countries with the exception of Lithuania have so far declined its requests to supply weapons.

[Graham Kennedy]

Good for them. We should be doing the same.

[Mikey]

Good for them. We should be doing the same.

Doing the same? If this were a nation a bit farther west than Ukraine is, NATO would have live mobilized forces on the scene. We should be doing a fuckton more than letting them borrow a handful of rifles.

[Captain Seafort]

If this were a nation a bit farther west than Ukraine is, NATO would have live mobilized forces on the scene.

Because if this were a nation a bit farther west than Ukraine we'd be talking about a NATO member, and Article V would have been invoked. Gripping the Russians before they get it into their heads that NATO will just stand aside and let them do as they like is important, but Ukraine isn't worth loosing DC or London, which is a potential outcome if we start deploying forces.

[Mikey]

...but Ukraine isn't worth loosing DC or London, which is a potential outcome if we start deploying forces.

a) The point isn't what Ukraine is worth (which, BTW, is a cold-blooded piece of inhuman analysis even for you, because it's worth everything because humans live there) but what checking Russia is worth; and

b) Ummm, histrionic much?

OK, forget NATO specifically and look at what has been deemed worthy of armed response in the past. We went and got our asses kicked up and down East Buttfuck because the frogs couldn't hold on to a colonial city in the armpit of a nowhere, useless, completely un-impactful country in SE Asia, but armed response in protecting a nation and its elected government - which nation contains the third-largest nuclear stockpile in the world; a natural buffer between Russia and Moldova, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, and easier direct access to the Mediterranean via the Black Sea; and sites such as Mariopol and Sevastapol - doesn't merit any help, even when the naturally and (truly) democratically elected president of said nation was poisoned - no, really, this isn't a B-rated spy movie, it really happened - with a mycotoxin (!) by Russian-backed movers. Oh, and we DID go to fight the native population in the name of "help," we were actually fighting against the will of a group of the populace, while in Ukraine we would be fighting aligned with the will of the populace. Yeah, I can see why we'd want to avoid any chance of accidentally doing the right thing or helping people.

[Captain Seafort]

a) The point isn't what Ukraine is worth (which, BTW, is a cold-blooded piece of inhuman analysis even for you, because it's worth everything because humans live there) but what checking Russia is worth

Cold blooded, maybe, but that's the only sane way of approaching a decision on whether or not to start a war between two nuclear powers.

b) Ummm, histrionic much?

I'm simply pointing out the worse case scenario - one that, while unlikely, comes a lot closer when NATO and the Russians are shooting at each other than when they're calling each other names and slapping sanctions on each other.

OK, forget NATO specifically and look at what has been deemed worthy of armed response in the past. We went and got our asses kicked up and down East Buttfuck because the frogs couldn't hold on to a colonial city in the armpit of a nowhere, useless, completely un-impactful country in SE Asia, but armed response in protecting a nation and its elected government - which nation contains the third-largest nuclear stockpile in the world; a natural buffer between Russia and Moldova, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, and easier direct access to the Mediterranean via the Black Sea; and sites such as Mariopol and Sevastapol - doesn't merit any help, even when the naturally and (truly) democratically elected president of said nation was poisoned - no, really, this isn't a B-rated spy movie, it really happened - with a mycotoxin (!) by Russian-backed movers. Oh, and we DID go to fight the native population in the name of "help," we were actually fighting against the will of a group of the populace, while in Ukraine we would be fighting aligned with the will of the populace. Yeah, I can see why we'd want to avoid any chance of accidentally doing the right thing or helping people.

Ukraine doesn't have any nuclear weapons - they were all sent back to Russia in the mid-90s (in return for a security guarantee that, unsurprisingly, wasn't worth the paper it was written on). Moreover, the only time in history that two nuclear powers have gone to war was at Kargil in 1999 - for the very good reason that active combat greatly increases the chances of someone misinterpreting or misjudging something and panicking. Even when US and Soviet forces were fighting each other directly over Korea, both sides went to great lengths to pretend there were no Russians involved, so as to avoid to as great a degree as possible the risk of starting WW3 (Douglas MacArthur's efforts to start said war notwithstanding).

[Mikey]

I was actually referring to Vietnam, but the lack of any actual "war" there as known by that term may have been confusing. Anyway, I personally can't countenace the outright invasion of a sovereign nation without even the pretext of an excuse, and against the visible and overwhelming will of the invaded populace, nor can I countenance the unwillingness of the West to get incolced when the West has shown itself to be more than willing to involve itself in far more morally ambiguous situations for far less reason.

[Captain Seafort]

I was actually referring to Vietnam, but the lack of any actual "war" there as known by that term may have been confusing.

I know - I referred to Korea specifically because that was the only case I'm aware of of direct combat between the US and Soviet militaries. Vietnam fits the same pattern of the Soviets staying well out of it (at least overtly), in order to minimise the possibility of the war turning into a US-Soviet confrontation, especially the proximity (in time) to the Cuban crisis.

Anyway, I personally can't countenace the outright invasion of a sovereign nation without even the pretext of an excuse, and against the visible and overwhelming will of the invaded populace, nor can I countenance the unwillingness of the West to get incolced when the West has shown itself to be more than willing to involve itself in far more morally ambiguous situations for far less reason.

The west is getting involved, in the form of economic sanctions on Russia, which should certainly be pushed far harder than they are now. Direct military support is a whole other kettle of fish, and even the overt supply of weapons by the core NATO powers would be a slightly iffy step.

[Mikey]

And for all the suffering Ukraine has had historically at the hands of Russia/the U.S.S.R., and for remaining a bulwark against Russia even at hugely disadvantageous odds during the nuclear de-proliferation phase and again during the rise of Emperor Palp- er, Putin, we give Ukraine a big "fuck off, we're busy."

[Captain Seafort]

And for all the suffering Ukraine has had historically at the hands of Russia/the U.S.S.R., and for remaining a bulwark against Russia even at hugely disadvantageous odds during the nuclear de-proliferation phase and again during the rise of Emperor Palp- er, Putin, we give Ukraine a big "fuck off, we're busy."

No, we give them as much help as we can without risking war with Russia, and given the political and economic reactions to Crimea et al, it's not as if the reaction has just been "fuck off, we're busy."

[Mikey]

You are referring, I believe, to the the political and economic reactions which have been fierce enough to acheive the exact sum total of sweet F. A.?

[Reliant121]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the extended sanctions against Russia has helped send their currency/economy into a steep recession has it not?

[Mikey]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the extended sanctions against Russia has helped send their currency/economy into a steep recession has it not?

A bit. So what? Ukraine is still in the same imminent danger from Russia as it has been.